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This is simple keep an open mind be ready to engage in learning and just keep it simple as you can. We all understand that there is many ways to play this game let's explore some with an open mind. Maybe understand better ways to approach how to get better. Be ready to be tested and challenged it is just the way things are its about provable results.

Thought I should paste it here since it fits the open minded topic.

If something moves right then something has to move left in order to be a balanced movement and to go in a circle or half circle that changes direction. Is that counter balance or counter motion or is it just easier to do. The question is to find the best way to describe that why do we counter ourselves so much in the body. Is it a benefit or not? For example walking or running we always have one leg passing another as well as arms.mis that counterbalance or counter motion?

Lee Comeaux wrote:


I think it's counter motion in order to balance our center and create as much of a neutrally balanced body as we possibly can. Unfortunately, I have no definition for a neutrally balanced body besides standing up in proper posture.

In your video, you talk about our butt going left to balance our arms going right. Mike Austin talks about avoiding turning the hips behind the navel, calling it a "negative position". Instead, he says golfers should balance on the right leg at the top of the backswing. It seems to me like he's saying the clapper of the bell should go side to side while the top remains steady. What are your thoughts on this?

Here is the video for reference:

Limbs passing one another while walking? Counterbalance or countermotion? Seems like both.

Matthew D. wrote:


Im a big fan of Mr. Austin and for his time he was correct. Now Imagine a swing where we stretch first then from impact through we coil up. What Mr. Austin did not know are the way in which we use the body due to New medical findings in the 80s and 90s. Now I keep my feet and calfs loaded the calfs LOAD THE HIP SOCKET. Now I dont feel a remendous amount of load on either one I do feel tremendous load in my Calfs. The reason is like I described the Pelvis it Torques front to back and twist if you will. Where ever the moving hands and arms are is where the weight is so they are in motion therefore the weight is always moving. This is a concept far beyond Mr. Austins however if it were not for Mr. Austin opening our eyes to the posabilities then I would have never gotten here.

I named this forum OPENMINDED for a reason in that think past what many many many GREAT TEACHERS gave us a great foundation to start from and think like this. HOW CAN WE IMPROVE ON THIS. That is the thinking you need to have. It all can be improved on it must. Also I stated that the buttocks cheeks FOLLOW or move in time with the BACK OF ELBOWS Automatically. In the past I have said our round muscle on the bottom is in fact the CG control center. Hence CENTER and it is round. I bring all my BALANCE MOTION AND MASS INTO THAT CENTER AND LEAVE IT THERE I learned that gathering the 3 in one spot and holding them allowed me to relax in all other areas therefore have total ability to be aware of when and where to FIRE into a COIL on the other side of the DIVOT and Motion.Also showed the one and only line we must worry about and that sits between the TOE LINE AND TARGET LINE if you stay balanced to that then you will learnt that it is the sum of the two divided by their halfs that gives you that location. NOWBEND THAT LINE IN AN ARC. TRACK UP AND THE LINESITS DEAD UNDER THE ELBOWS EVERYTIME. AS FOR POSTURE I FIND ONE THAT WILL NOT LOAD MY HIPS ONLY MY FEET AND HANDS AND BEING DISCONNECTED FROM THE START ALLOWS ME TO GET CONNECTED AT SOME POINT AND EITHER STAY THERE OR EXTEND FROM THERE. MOST PEOPLE GET CONNECTED ONLY TO GET UNCONNECTED COMING BACK ITS THE EQUAL AND OPPOSITE. AGAIN I WATCHED MOE A LOT AND ASKED WHY SO DISCONNECTED THEN EVERYONE ELSE. THEN I GOT IT HOW CAN AN ELBOW DROP IN IF ITS ALREADY IN. IM NOT SAYING IT HAS TOO BUT AT THE TIME THAT WAS THE POPULAR THINKING. MOE GOT OUTSIDE THE BOX AND THOUGH MORE LOGICAL THEN MOST.

So I went from loading a hip joint to loading my right shoulders joint and unload. Two things it did 1 it fired energy into the head and shaft and two there is no chance of me getting hurt and no weight shift required in the lower body only turn and fire my feet always feel 50/50 my weight feels leaning forward over my lower pelvisnot upper. so i was now out over the divot and strike and not angled back and to the right like i used too. Staying out and over vs. back and behind is a great topic and one in golf often spoke of BUT they cannot get there by LOADING the right leg or hip to the right of the ball MINE TRAVELS TO THE CENTER OF THE BALL keeps my out and over and pins me more centered and often times feels very LEFT becuase the right leg is moving or going left to my cente. Know my cheeks are the ones controling that and the round muscle as well it can hold me there very well and move me in the opposite direction the arms and hands are firing past medown and through the ball.

best way i can put it again when we walk we always stretch the round muscle on the back bottom of us its getting pulled in two directions at once and if you stop and understand it it is our true CENTER and for a reason. It connects to so many great muscles and big ones you cannot imagine. So the term playing out our rear is not a joke if you take the time to simply try and understand how we can apply it to what we are doing. Where and how it points sets the AXIS and it must MOVE and not be still anoother key you will find. if it fires then guess what other things have to fire if it just moves from side to side then we can fire the hands and arms very fast and without losing control of ourselves.

I said Ted Williams said the key to hitting was speed and he was right.. I found how and where the speed can come from...Again that was me at most it was 40 percent thats all anyone realy needs its BALANCED at 50 percent and less any harder and things go in every direction.

Lee -

I'll have to get this Ted Williams swing clip from a 1947 film posted. You'll appreciate all the Hogan dynamics in it.

Here's a simple an open minded question for you:

When you're creating leverage using a lever, there's an axis point (over a fulcrum) that is not moving (or, at least not moving as fast as the end of the lever) and that fulcrum or axis point supports the pivot motion, correct? You can imagine this as the base of the see-saw, or the bony part of your elbow in a downward strike of a hammer onto a nail.

The fulcrum provides some amount of resistance to support the force of the lever, creating the leverage. If there was no resistance of the fulcrum, the whole assembly would be moving and less leveraged, right?

Now, let's take that simple idea of leverage against some resistance into Lee's golf swing.

1) on the downswing you are moving the right arm package in a straight line, which means the force of the clubhead is going to lag, so there is leverage in the right hand on the grip, correct?

2) you are also using the stability in the left leg to resist the impulse for your hips to spin open (and that resistance to spin creates some leverage for your left side to "stay in the shot" as Grady might say).

I know you generally avoid talking about the left hand and left arm, but isn't the left arm and hand providing critical function by providing some resistance to allow the right hand to extend in a highly leveraged manner?

Drew Art wrote:


YES AGAINST THE BASE OF THE LEFT PALM ITS ALSO BEING PUSHED ON BY THE RIGHT ELBOW ITS ROLE IS TO POINT THE GRIP END IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ELBOWS WHILE THE RIGHT POINTS THE HEAD THROUGH THE BALL. THE LEFT CONTROLS HOW MUCH I TAKE OUT ON THE DOWNSWING. SUBCONSCIOUSLY KNOWS WHEN TO MUCH IS. GREAT QUESTION AND ONE OF HIGH VALUE. WATCH WHEN I SHOW HOW WE EXTEND THE LEFT IS RESPONDING TO THE RIGHTS LEAD. EVEN IN THOSE MOTIONS. BELIEVE IT OR NOT ITS INWARD ROTATING THE END OF GRIP AND FOREARM OF LEFT ARM MY LEFT HAND IS ONLY AFTER I FIRE THE RIGHT.

Left-inner force, right-outer force, both need to be equal

Lee Comeaux wrote:


FACT!!!!!

Understand that everyone, that IS a big old huge KEY to the CITY of ballstriking!

Said slightly differently, but the same message:

The left hand and left arm provide enough resistance to allow the massive leverage of the right hand and right arm and they control the movement of the butt end of the club which swings counter to the clubhead, moving in a direction that swings back and points directly at CENTER of your CORE.

The core center being the overall center of the swing (the stable center where all the rotation moves around) and the core also being in the COG of the body... well look it up, that is the textbook definition of BALANCE in a rotating system.

Man I will say this everyone's Test questions are getting tougher and better in here so the site is working as designed. Being pre-paired for the right questions is always a tough one.

SOMEONE PM ME ABOUT THE TAKEAWAY OR START:


The start is a 45 degree angle that starts in the center of the velcro strap of my left glove going into the cup of the right elbow again think 45 degree angle up that is the takeaway slot that starts in the hands AS DOES THE RIGHT HAND PINKY WE LOAD THE ELBOW FROM THE BOTTOM. IF YOU TAKE THE ANGLES OF STRAIGHT RIGHT AND STRAIGHT BEHIND US AND SPLIT THEM ITS A 45 ALLOW THE INSIDE POCKET OF THE RIGHT ELBOW TO TRACK IT. NOT THE BACK OF THE ELBOW, THE CUP IN THE RIGHT ELBOW VERY IMPORTANT. ONCE YOU FIND THAT THE REST WILL BE VERY EASY..... SO LEAVE THE BALL IN A 45 (hands) AND COME THROUGH AT A 90 OR STRAIGHT LINE. IF YOU GO STRAIGHT BACK OR STRAIGHT RIGHT THEN YOU WILL COME THROUGH AT A 45 AFTER IMPACT SO TRY THEM BOTH YOU WILL SEE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS. SO WE CAN SWING LEFT IN A STRAIGHT LINE OR LEFT ON A LINE THAT IS CROOKED. FIND THE ONE THAT FITS YOUR THINKING AND UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THROUGH IS FOR YOU THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO WE HAVE THAT WORK. LOTS OF BALLSTRIKERS DID BOTH AS I DO THERE IS A TIME AND PLACE FOR EACH. I REALIZE THE SECOND IS VERY TEMPTING DO BOTH I DO THE FIRST 95% OF THE TIME. THIS CREATES 90 DEGREE RIGHT ANGLE IN THE CUPS OF ELBOWS IN FRONT THAT STAYS AT 90 (ONE FACING AWAY FROM US AND ONE FACING ACROSS US THAT IS A RIGHT ANGLE). IT JUST FLIPS AFTER IMPACT WITHOUT FLIPPING......

THANKS FOR THE QUESTION STAY OPEN MINDED.

Lee, have to disagree with you in respect to your comments about Mike Austin and weight transfer. You mentioned counter balance and counter motion, if you are loading left side at top of swing, counter motion moves you away from the ball at impact, not through the ball. Above average athletes may be able to make your move, but most players would move away from ball coming into impact. Any athletic motion the rear quad, hamstring, and calf muscle are loaded and then moved into front leg through impact.

A brief cinematic endeavor examining the possible distinction(s) between counterbalance and countermotion:

Lee Comeaux wrote:


Lee,

Some quick thoughts from a late night range session trying out what I saw in your video. I'm exhausted and half falling asleep so this may not make that much sense but here are some impressions.

(I've never been able to ignore the way you always stripe the ball in all these videos, the abbreviated 'specific' way you do it, compoared to my limber swing, is something I've wanted to copy that for while. Plus you make it look so simple it's bothered me that I sometimes got a little close but knew it wasn't the real deal.)

Anyways I must have been in the right frame of mind or this latest video was the straw that broke the camels back because for the most part I think I finally got it - results wise I was very pleased. I'm comfy with long irons and driver so the real test was short irons & wedges - it transferred perfectly.

I remembered most everything from the video but forgot about the 'push all the way to finish' and 'forgot about hitting down to increase height'. will try these next time though they are already 'sorta' there if your doing it right BUT every time I focused on or 'emphasized' one of your admonitions it really paid off in getting the most out of it showing me how much more potential is there is in it.

the line 'in-between' was neat delivering more energy and speed, a 'sweeter' release, but I think all I was doing was consciously passing the hands closer to the thigh. don't quite remember if I had to work the left hand more aggressively doing this but any extra effort is masked / overshadowed by that 'sweeter' release. Really the same concept is used in other swing techniques but when concentrating on working the elbow/s using your thoughts as mine it just becomes 'that line in between' and I now understand it this way.
God I hope I don't start typing in all caps.

right elbow cup 'being' the face was ridiculous. I already hit straight but just picking out a line on the range and placing that spatial responsibility on that elbow cup is a-c-u-r-a-t-e. I also think it asks far less of someone's proprioceptive faculties.

tried the left pinky, thinking it would mean more energy, and while results weren't bad - I ded get a little off balance. only 'emphasized' pinky a few times, maybe I already do it enough(?). just getting to know things anyways.

think what finally got through my head was you mentioning, though you probably did so a thousand times before, the right elbow moving (driving) past the body. In reality it sort of can, it sort of can't - it sort of does, it sort of doesn't but freeing it up (depending on where a person is already coming from) or just the intent of it makes all the difference. (taking the divot with your elbow so to speak) just realized I forgot about the 'back' of the elbow too. Of course (obviously) it all works best when, as you say, you ONLY release with the elbow/s - the club should still be, or feel, that it is still hinged and lagged way behind - sorta of a static 45º while the elbows do their thang.

oh yeah - the sound of impact kept putting a grin on my face.

Eyeball wrote:


Bullseye!

That was over the top!

phily wrote:


ACURATE IS WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR AND ALL CAPS ISNT REALLY AS HARD TO DO AS PLAYING GOLF. WELL THE POINT IS YOU NOW HAVE YOUR WORKING MODEL THAT WORKS FOR YOU.....ISNT THAT THE POINT. ENFORCE YOUR BELIEFS............

Lee
how do you view the triangle of the two arms in your mind as you swing?

Steve P wrote:


A triangle has three sides the collar bones being one of them therefore I use the rear of the triangle and collapse and expand that side of the triangle for motion mobility power and hit. The triangles center is located in the Sternum Joint under your throat and the bodys center is in the rear as I stated. The only moving part is the one side of the triangle as applies to actual body activation or motor skill. Please let me know if this makes sense. I also try not to use the corners too much only the point or corner of the triangle with the shaft sticking out using the ones in the shoulders if i do its only the one in the right tip of triangle mostly you can play around with yours for what feels better you really cannot screw it up only perfect it. Remember the only place in the body that goes 360 is in the sternum joint dont have to go anywhere near that. also the collar bones are the only ones that will push our weight around evenly or in one piece. without them moving the upper trunk wont move.

So push with the right side of triangle and push against the left side for added resistance.

phily wrote:


Philly....
how does that koolaid taste now.........

Rick Marion wrote:
Philly....
how does that koolaid taste now.........

D-e-e-e-l-i-c-i-o-u-s, glug, glug, glug, Now, that I can finally understand how to make the stuff, ... and don't bother me while I'm ... glug, glug, glug...

btw - it wasn't for lack of lack of trying on either part. I think Lee's message is perhaps becoming more refined (clearer) or maybe myself and perhaps others are meeting him in the middle or just learning his 'language' - don't know. Lee's swing has always spoken for itself, but previous in depth explanations sometimes seemed cryptic to the less 'enlightened'. I would have heaped more praise while willingly stepping into the noose but I still have lots more work to do.

Since I need things 'graphically' clear I asked Lee to pick out, though they are all fine, a representational swing to loop/animate and break down. Hopefully he agrees as these better fit my attention span.

Lee Comeaux wrote:


I understand. Best round I ever had I had this picture of the triangle rotating open and shutting on the ball. A thrust line concept is much simpler though.
I LOVE the thrust idea with that right arm. So simplifies the intent from thinking in circles to a straight line.
A straight line of intent is simple and effective.
Again today I worked with that mental image on the range right elbow thrust line. Works great for me. I love simple things...
Thinking in curves is complicated. A straight line is simple.
Also I agree Hogan himself wanted to evolve the model.
It is definitely possible all the rotation you see in Hogan was a result of linear intentions...
Ty for sharing LEE.

Edit when you say push against the left I am thinking left leg?
Is that right?

out of nowhere Steve P nails it... Its Linear straight lines we may should be looking for WOW I know you did this you can only come to that conclusion through doing it congrats. Im very impressed first guy to talk about the linear aspects of the motion. There is circular in there its just a look the feel is straight kine or linear with 45 degrees bends at times in it. Great digging Steve....Count the days in a row now
Lee

This is hand speed.... Tim G should like this.



Why is he only watching one hand and not the other or is he watching? Or is how thinking about one hand?