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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hitting with "Both Sides"

Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12344

  • anton
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hey Mark, i even believe that Mr Hogan did talk to Vasquez about right knee but the context and recollection might have been very different. he mentions in that book that he got a comment from Mr Hogan once something along the lines of 'you cant hit 8 iron that far and play golf' so it might have been that he was explaining his distance control ideas at the time to him. Ken Venturi did talk about right knee and right hand speed and how fast they clear together as means to control distance as well. what Vasquez wrote in that book about driving right knee towards the ball doesnt make any sense to me. it just wont work, it cant work, Mr Hogan swing or otherwise. the rest of this discussion i'd rather stay away from.
1lovegolf24 wrote:
Mr. Ayers ,Drew Art, Anton, how much of a motion towards the ball would suffice as an actual move in that dirction. Could it be the mere activation of the muscle required to move in that direction be enough for Hogan to get the desired results or effect he was looking for.

MO. balancing a swing and it's motions are more undetactable than visually present.

I believe Mr. Austin understood this, and maybe Hogan did also.

Anton, as far as Jody vasquez and his input, I believe, or how I interpeted his words were dependent on the word "Balance ". Two part secret to execute a balanced swing, as hard as he choose to swing. Truth or not?, I don't know, I never saw Hogans feet torqued into the ground either, but some seem to think so.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12345

  • mike
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Can someone explain the term "goat humper"... I've seen it too many times to still not know what it means! Thanks!
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12346

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You can look it up on urbandictionary.com. It is a very derogatory term -- basically an insult. Probably best just leave it at that.
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12347

  • Paxton Berry
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Ok, let me get more precise in the right knee and how I think it is used in a biokinetic way in hogan's swing. As I said earlier coming from the top and turning both hands in unison cw and driving them toward the right foot, the right knee will go towards the left foot instep roughly and as the hands reach hip high the right knee will reach a biolimit and then force the left hip to rise and go ccw all while the hands are releasing to and through impact. It is a skeletal limit caused reaction instructed in the way the hands move in the way I stated above.
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Paxton Berry.
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12348

  • anton
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it was summed up rather nicely on Brian Manzella Golf Forum while back



quoting from there :

"So- if you picture/hump a small goat to the left (goat faces the target) - you´ll be Hogan, Trevino or any Dariusz-like golfer.

A medium-sized goat to the left- you´re Tiger 2000.

A huge goat right in front of you- young European Ryder Cup player 2010

Goat moving on an endless belt toward the target in front of you- S&T

But if you have Educated Hands as per something the Goat can be Placed Anywhere you Wish".
mike wrote:
Can someone explain the term "goat humper"... I've seen it too many times to still not know what it means! Thanks!
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12349

  • Drew Art
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It's not really a derogatory term .. and surely this definition has not made urban dictionary (has it?).. it's just a funny description of the lower body compensating moves you have to make in order to hit the ball when your right elbow gets "stuck" behind you.

Well done, Anton.
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12350

  • tallowood
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Wow. Sorry about that. I have always heard the term as an ethnic slur. I didn't know it had a special meaning for golf. I stand corrected.

Tallowood
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12352

  • Lee Comeaux
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Drew Art wrote:
1lovegolf24 wrote:
Mr. Ayers ,Drew Art, Anton, how much of a motion towards the ball would suffice as an actual move in that dirction. Could it be the mere activation of the muscle required to move in that direction be enough for Hogan to get the desired results or effect he was looking for.

MO. balancing a swing and it's motions are more undetactable than visually present.

I believe Mr. Austin understood this, and maybe Hogan did also.

Anton, as far as Jody vasquez and his input, I believe, or how I interpeted his words were dependent on the word "Balance ". Two part secret to execute a balanced swing, as hard as he choose to swing. Truth or not?, I don't know, I never saw Hogans feet torqued into the ground either, but some seem to think so.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Mark,

I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but I will say this.

One has to have some amount of balance to hit a golf ball and remain upright and not fall down. That can be done in many ways. Some golf swings are just terrible for the body... putting a tremendous strain on the body over time and are unsustainable physically over the course of years.

The key is to create a WELL-balanced swing, which means eliminating a lot of the counter-balance that imposes great stress on joints.

To create a well-balanced swing, I think it is important to consider the action as a whole. Where you are starting and where you are ending up.

What efficient swingers of the golf club do, is they take away the motions that are unnecessary, and those that are unsustainable.

If you see an old man that is able to hit balls into his 70s or 80s without joint replacements, chances are damn good that they have honed a efficient well-balanced swing. Hogan, Snead, Austin, Burke... no goat-humpers in that bunch.

We can learn A LOT from those with the long view on things...

i agree they were butt twisters and chair sitters but no goat humpers. i like the tern heel pushers or ankle leaners. in fact went to the range tonight and just wanted to fing the MAX distance i had with the driver. have not done that in a few years. did the chair sitting move. Well lets just say I stay in the 4 something range the whole bucket, i have to admit that was fun to do and man they were staright,

leecom
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12355

  • 1lovegolf24
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Hi Lee, wlecome to the "Best of both Worlds", I was wondering if you could answer a few of the questions I posted for you earlier if you get a chance.

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

PS, of those that reached 4 something range, how many were using c-motion?
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: added comment
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12360

Mark, my answers in bold letters below:
1lovegolf24 wrote:
In your studies, you mention no rational way to aotomate the functions of the elbows other than what you mention in your article. I believe there is a way to observe the limitations of the elbows collectively to produce two arms that function as one via the wrists.

Yes. The problem with automating arms movements lies in lack of connection with stable element of our physical reality - such as e.g. it is relatively easy to automate legs motion thanks to their direct connection to the ground. One can benefit easily from one's own mass and torques in joints in such a scenario.
Arms are distal limbs of the body as well as legs are but they have to move freely. Moreover, they are too long and too complex to be utterly dependent on main body movement. However, biokinetics tells us that they should be dependent as much as possible if the main goal is accuracy. If the main goal is distance - we can state that more freedom is needed here.
Ben Hogan achieved both goals simultaneously. This is his genius. My work is mainly dedicated to obtaining repeatability and consistency (which constitute automatism) and I never hesitate to sacrifice power to reach my goals.



I have stated before in my blog that Hogan swung with one hand. I guess you can guess where I am going with this. If Hogan in fact, did so, why stop at the hands. Why not the wrists, elbows, and yes shoulders. such a singular m inded swing has many advantages as you can imagine.
You mentioned Tiger and his use of the right arm. Was he missing a key element that was necessary to stabalize such a powerfull swing? I am not sure. But that is where my swing has taken me and demanded I search for the answers. And to be honest with you, the dirt is the only place I believe the answer lies, intelectually and metaphorically.

The problem of Woods and, in fact of all Tour players today, are media requirements, IMO. Media would like to concentrate on greens and finishing holes as well as on showing only succesfull pros. They hate to show incompetent pros. Therefore, the changes on courses make them longer and longer while rough becomes shorter and shorter. FIR number means less than ever since rough is so laughable that makes amateurs play in much more severe conditions today (at least where I play). They promote ballwhackers, not ballstrikers.
The consequence of such policy is that Tour players care on completely opposite goals than my researches concern. That's why Woods needs to whack the ball and uses his hands independently on his body motion more than he should to fulfill his biggest dream to be the 3rd one in the history, after Hogan and Moe, who owned his swing. That's also why swings in the 50-ies were so much better than those of today, at least in my eyes.
People (and instructors) need to understand that everything they do with the swing motion ALWAYS depends on a primary macroscale goal. Yes, it is that easy, IMO.



Since you have broadened our prospective, lets push that and explore the unexplored?

Sure, that's why we all are here and I agree, it is the best place in the net to push it= since no mafias and agendas here, at least until now.

Respectfully,

Mark ,1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Dariusz Jedrzejewski.
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12361

Great posts concerning the "goat humping", Gents.

I must say that I always thought that the term regards only golfers who lose their tush line only (as the first one on Manzella's video with this horrible looking swing), but Anton made me aware and laugh (2 in one...lol) that it all may depend where the goat stands and how big it is...:)

Cheers
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12362

  • JonBondi
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one thing that we have to take in account is the change in equippment over last 30 years
from hi spin balls and low spin clubs to low spin balls and hi spin clubs today
that change has had dramaticlly change how we compress and hit our balls.
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12363

JonBondi wrote:
one thing that we have to take in account is the change in equippment over last 30 years
from hi spin balls and low spin clubs to low spin balls and hi spin clubs today
that change has had dramaticlly change how we compress and hit our balls.

That's a very good point, Jon. Add to the list "vanishing loft syndrome" (as Tom Wishon calls it - so that golfers think they can hit their #5 or #9 irons further than their friends...lol) plus favouring more and more upright lies (to think it helps to fight slicing...lol). The equipent today is horrible, only balls are better. Good that one can bend forged clubs more than 2 degrees and good that we can have additional weight ports to increase MOI of clubs, etc. etc.

Cheers
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Dariusz Jedrzejewski.
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12365

  • 1lovegolf24
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Dariuz J, thanks for the reply and willingness to explore.

Basic question, for anyone, to start. If the left arm is straight at impact, why can"t the right be also?

Mark , 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12366

  • Parks
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Hi Mark,
if the Left arm is straightening going into impact, the clubhead is traveling in a downward path. The Right hand being lower than the left on the grip, means that in order to continue on a downward path the right has to stay bent. If you straighten the Right arm the clubhead will be travelling on an upward path.

During the straigtening of the right arm the club head will eventually get to it's lowest point, most golfers try to do this after the ball not before.

Parks
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12368

  • Ward Flowers
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Parks wrote:
Hi Mark,
if the Left arm is straightening going into impact, the clubhead is traveling in a downward path. The Right hand being lower than the left on the grip, means that in order to continue on a downward path the right has to stay bent. If you straighten the Right arm the clubhead will be traveling on an upward path.

During the straigtening of the right arm the club head will eventually get to it's lowest point, most golfers try to do this after the ball not before.

Parks

Parks, would you also agree that you would have already completed the release of the club if the right was straight? In other words all the energy that comes from the push of the right would have been spent prior to impact in order to have it straight. I think some people that tee the driver up high and in front get this and wonder why they have no distance.
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Ward Flowers.
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12369

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Parks wrote:
Hi Mark,
if the Left arm is straightening going into impact, the clubhead is traveling in a downward path. The Right hand being lower than the left on the grip, means that in order to continue on a downward path the right has to stay bent. If you straighten the Right arm the clubhead will be travelling on an upward path.

During the straigtening of the right arm the club head will eventually get to it's lowest point, most golfers try to do this after the ball not before.

Parks

Hi Parks,

Yes you are correct. So what is it we need to do in order to keep the club on it's downward arc?

If you noticed in my question, I said straight arm. If you stand at address and hinge the wrist away from the target, to their limitations in their ROM, you will get a better idea of what I am talking about Now this is outside conventional wisdom as to the "Proper" hinging of the wrist at impact.

Also if you look at some of my recent ax swing videos and even my profile swing, the right and left arms are straight at impact.You will also notice the hands are in exactly the same position at impact as in address.

I did not manufacture this motion, it found me while experimenting and observing the natural motion and ROM of the right hand and arm.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12388

  • Parks
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Hi Mark,
so keeping the Right arm straight and keeping the Right wrist in a maximum stretch going into impact.

So the release of the club is held off and then eventually released by the wrist straightening through impact.

This would move the leverage or whip out of the Right Elbow and turn the entire right arm into a lever. The wrist would then act as the "whip" final lever.

It can be done, but is it a mechanical advantage ?

If you took 2 rice flails or Nunchuk's
1 is made with a 22" rod linked to a 4" ball, the other is an 11" rod linked to another 11" rod with a 4" ball on the end.

If you swung both of these flails and measures the speed of the ball, which ball would be moving faster?

Parks
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12395

  • 1lovegolf24
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Parks wrote:
Hi Mark,
so keeping the Right arm straight and keeping the Right wrist in a maximum stretch going into impact.

So the release of the club is held off and then eventually released by the wrist straightening through impact.

This would move the leverage or whip out of the Right Elbow and turn the entire right arm into a lever. The wrist would then act as the "whip" final lever.

It can be done, but is it a mechanical advantage ?

If you took 2 rice flails or Nunchuk's
1 is made with a 22" rod linked to a 4" ball, the other is an 11" rod linked to another 11" rod with a 4" ball on the end.

If you swung both of these flails and measures the speed of the ball, which ball would be moving faster?

Parks

Parks, I will be honest with you, I don't know exactly what the mechanical advantages are yet.

It is a totally reactionary motion on my part. I have always looked for one more kinetic link before releasing energy into the ball and there is a reason for this last link.

Furthermore, there is a great deal more release than the conventional bent arm and release after striking the ball.The actual striaghtening of the arm, while applying torque, is also releasing the shaft into a more vertical condition. however, the final blow is provided by the squaring of the club face into the ball by the wrists and body.

Think of the club face as a small bat, the hozel is the grip and the toe is the tip of the bat. How would bring it into the ball, well, via arms, hands, grip, shaft, we hit the bal the same way.

I know this doesn't make alot of sense right now, and that is why I started this thread to see if there was anyone else who might be exploring these possibilities.

Also, I am not convinced that the right arm is totally straight.

That is the best I can explain what I feel.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12401

  • Parks
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Hi Mark,
let me know how you go, I'll do some experiments with a golf radar I bought when I was over in the US.
It's amazing how fast you can swing a club without a ball in the way.

It helped me prove to myself that I could get more swing speed, with much less effort and overall movement than I previously used.

Parks
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12406

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Parks wrote:
Hi Mark,
let me know how you go, I'll do some experiments with a golf radar I bought when I was over in the US.
It's amazing how fast you can swing a club without a ball in the way.

It helped me prove to myself that I could get more swing speed, with much less effort and overall movement than I previously used.

Parks

Hi Parks, other than Lee and a few others, finding golfers who have a straight arm at impact are hard to find, but a fellow firter put this up .

am not sure of Mr. Smiths results on this shot, but the right arm appears to be straight,

Maybe Mr. Smith will post here and let us know a little more about his swing.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12408

  • Parks
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Parks wrote:
Hi Mark,
let me know how you go, I'll do some experiments with a golf radar I bought when I was over in the US.
It's amazing how fast you can swing a club without a ball in the way.

It helped me prove to myself that I could get more swing speed, with much less effort and overall movement than I previously used.

Parks

Hi Parks, other than Lee and a few others, finding golfers who have a straight arm at impact are hard to find, but a fellow firter put this up .

I am not sure of Mr. Smiths results on this shot, but the right arm appears to be straight,

Maybe Mr. Smith will post here and let us know a little more about his swing.

Hi Mark,
with Lee, Left arm straight at impact Right arm is still bent. His Right arm is only completely straight after impact. With iron's it's as the face exits the divot and with a driver it's straightens roughly as the Right hand reaches the left hip.

Parks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12410

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Parks, That was my next question I was going to ask Lee, but he has been unable to answer previous questions do to commitments. I appreciate you volunteering this info.

I have experience this feeling of straight arms only with the short irons, and exactly as you described, through impact. The longer the club, the more bent the right arm becomes, but the wrist motion feels the same..

I will keep working with it, Thanks for your help.

Mark
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12413

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Hey all, is there anyone out there who has observed the natural motion of the right arm and hand, whether it be throwing, skipping a rock or a frisbee, etc. and really observed when impact or release of energy occurs?

Now, how many of those motions execute the transfer of energy with a bent elbow?

So why is it that when we swing a golf club with two hands, all the speed and energy are "Released" after the ball is already gone?

Can we do better. There are only two people I know of that have pushed the envelope and have come the closest to executing the techniques required to transfer the highest amount of energy upon impact?

One Is Lee Comeaux, and the other is Mike Austin. And I believe it is no coincident that both have observed and implemented a vast amount of knowledge of kinetic motion into their motion..Furthermore, and this is not as important, but both have hit in excess of 500yrds.

What do they know that we don't and how have they used that info in the golf swing?

I may never know the answer to that question, but observing natural motion and the body that performs these motion seems to be the common thread or secret.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin

mark 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hitting with "Both Sides" 3 years 4 months ago #12415

  • anton
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dude, Jamie Sadlowski hits it 300 yards with a putter, yes, a putter, with plenty of people around to confirm as it really is hard to believe. its just pure speed and solid contact. you aint gonna get it by figuring out where your elbow is or where it should be at each point in time because you have zero control over your elbow at that speed. think about it.
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