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TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30655

  • Festus
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Good gif Phily...

...no matter how many times I watch it, Ted never misses a ball. :laugh:

Gets to what Martin describes and well worth the observation that even though the ball is struck in front, or ahead, of him impact, it is also left of him through the zone....until the trail hand pops. I think that is a correct Martin view, but I won't know if it is unless he puts down the chopsticks and sushi and comes back to comment of the accuracy thereof.

Domo-Arigato :silly:
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Festus.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30656

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Festus wrote:
Good gif Phily...

...no matter how many times I watch it, Ted never misses a ball. :laugh:

Gets to what Martin describes and well worth the observation that even though the ball is struck in front, or ahead, of him impact, it is also left of him through the zone....until the trail hand pops. I think that is a correct Martin view, but I won't know if it is unless he puts down the chopsticks and sushi and comes back to comment of the accuracy thereof.

Domo-Arigato :silly:

I would like to hear Martins views on Hogan too,maybe he will join us after his sushi like you said. Maves and Martin seem like they know alot about Hogan. I am enjoying this thread.

Good Stuff

Bob
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30657

  • Dan Lunn
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Mike Maves wrote:
Mehlhorn's book has had me mezmerized for more than a year. It was given to me by Dirter Steve Redston. I keep it by my bedside table and also travel with it and I read from it often. It reads like a conversation and many people may not appreciate that format but I love it. Many may poo poo the simplicity of what is presented but Mehlhorn clearly was a genius when it comes to golf and he said it plain which I appreciate more than anything else.

Here's a link to a picture of my copy amongst my other books.

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/village/my...mid=893#photoid=4490

The old timers knew alot.

MM

Do you think this is because they went out and found it for themselves through trial and error with a systematic approach to the multitude of movements? And with rarely accesible video they have figured out what works and related that to the physiology of the body without the benefit of super slo-mo etc. I think it would be great to get a student to take this approach - sure it would take a long time but I'm convinced they would own their swings much like our old mate BH.

D
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30658

  • Drew Art
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Ron Smith wrote:
this is what I see.

1 - The left wrist radially deviates from a weak grip which shows up as dorsi flexion at the top of his swing. (The infamous cupped left wrist).

2 - The right wrist also radially deviates and shows up as dorsi flexion at the top of the swing.

3 - The right arm/elbow stays close to the body on the BS and allows the hands to move up into the top position all while rotating the body. This allows the left arm to be straight and go up and across the chest and shoulder line.

4 - In the transition, the left wrist has ulnar deviation that releases the "cupped" wrist and puts it into a palmar flexion. This is where Hogan says he supinates or bows the left wrist on the way down. There maybe some left forearm pronation to lay off the club from the top too. This pushes the right hand/right elbow down and into the body. The so called "free ride down". Some like to call this the gravity drop but I don't think Hogan just let it fall. This would involve timing and waiting. He pushed down with the left wrist and pulled down with the right elbow. This got his right elbow on his right hip.

5 - The right wrist ulnar deviates slightly but keeps the dorsiflexion in the down swing. This keeps the club face from ever flipping at impact.

6 - From there he just freezes the triangle of the arms/wrist and just body pivot rotates the hell out of it.

There, I like my own description of what I think Hogan does better than how the 5L book describes it. :woohoo:

For those who wonder about my radial deviation that turns into dorsiflexion statement, try this experiment.

Put your left arm out in front of you like you are gripping a club with a weak grip (thumb on top). Now take your thumb straight back toward your forearm (I remember someone saying Hogan could touch his forearm with his thumb). You don't have to do it that far. What happens? Not only do you radially deviate, you also now have dorsiflexed (cupped the left wrist). Hmmm, the secret to the secret (cupped left wrist)?

Talk about finding nuggets of gold in a trash heap. This is a great thread if you can get over the signal-to-noise ratio. ;)

Why would Hogan (or you) want to release the angles in transition?

Hogan had very late release and the cup in the left wrist is still there when the hands are in front of the right thigh. Check the gifs.

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/forum/52-p...t=25&start=125#17189

To the extent there is any move from cupped left wrist into palmar flexion, it happens in an instant, very late in the DS... not in transition.
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30659

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Mike Maves wrote:
Mehlhorn's book has had me mezmerized for more than a year. It was given to me by Dirter Steve Redston. I keep it by my bedside table and also travel with it and I read from it often. It reads like a conversation and many people may not appreciate that format but I love it. Many may poo poo the simplicity of what is presented but Mehlhorn clearly was a genius when it comes to golf and he said it plain which I appreciate more than anything else.

Here's a link to a picture of my copy amongst my other books.

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/village/my...mid=893#photoid=4490

The old timers knew alot. Mike,could you give us nugget from the book

MM
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30660

  • Mike Maves
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Dan Lunn wrote:
Mike Maves wrote:
Mehlhorn's book has had me mezmerized for more than a year. It was given to me by Dirter Steve Redston. I keep it by my bedside table and also travel with it and I read from it often. It reads like a conversation and many people may not appreciate that format but I love it. Many may poo poo the simplicity of what is presented but Mehlhorn clearly was a genius when it comes to golf and he said it plain which I appreciate more than anything else.

Here's a link to a picture of my copy amongst my other books.

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/village/my...mid=893#photoid=4490

The old timers knew alot.

MM

Do you think this is because they went out and found it for themselves through trial and error with a systematic approach to the multitude of movements? And with rarely accesible video they have figured out what works and related that to the physiology of the body without the benefit of super slo-mo etc. I think it would be great to get a student to take this approach - sure it would take a long time but I'm convinced they would own their swings much like our old mate BH.

D

I think you've got something there. To quote Mehlhorn "In golf, you can feel things 100 times better than any eye can see and that includes the camera eye."
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30661

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alan wrote:
Mike Maves wrote:
Mehlhorn's book has had me mezmerized for more than a year. It was given to me by Dirter Steve Redston. I keep it by my bedside table and also travel with it and I read from it often. It reads like a conversation and many people may not appreciate that format but I love it. Many may poo poo the simplicity of what is presented but Mehlhorn clearly was a genius when it comes to golf and he said it plain which I appreciate more than anything else.

Here's a link to a picture of my copy amongst my other books.

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/village/my...mid=893#photoid=4490

The old timers knew alot. Mike,could you give us nugget from the book

MM

At the end of the book which is 240 pages there are 150 little nuggets of Mehlhorn in single sentence entries. Here's a sample. They are great but greater when you have read the rest of the book and can relate these things back to some of the things he states and recounts.

MM
MehlhornQuotes.JPG
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30662

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i luv em,especialyy the long chip shot thought
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30663

  • Martin Ayers
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Festus wrote:
Good gif Phily...

...no matter how many times I watch it, Ted never misses a ball. :laugh:

Gets to what Martin describes and well worth the observation that even though the ball is struck in front, or ahead, of him impact, it is also left of him through the zone....until the trail hand pops. I think that is a correct Martin view, but I won't know if it is unless he puts down the chopsticks and sushi and comes back to comment of the accuracy thereof.

Domo-Arigato :silly:
Doitashimashite

Correct Sir Festus,
Interesting to note the arms rotating away from the ball...hands NEVER drop...as a result of the containment of the bat twirled toward Ted much the same as MPMIG)....watch his left wrist for the frame or two before impact as the inertia of the swinging bat overcomes that momentarily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30664

  • Martin Ayers
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Mike 18-20 on that list is GOLDEN...all good points...but I love those three. We have chatted about Melhorn before...there is not a single one of these old guys that are not worth a read. They all have a ton of wisdom to impart to us.......
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30665

  • Mike Maves
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Martin Ayers wrote:
Mike 18-20 on that list is GOLDEN...all good points...but I love those three. We have chatted about Melhorn before...there is not a single one of these old guys that are not worth a read. They all have a ton of wisdom to impart to us.......

Amen to that....Here's a little more. Don't think I should publish much more than this or we'll wind up with the whole book in here. :unsure:

MehlhornQuotes2.JPG
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30667

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phily wrote:
...few posts back we were talking baseball swing, this clip stood out to me from the video Mike posted on his Sevam1 blog sevam1.blogspot.com/2008/10/ted-williams...gan-of-baseball.html

I like his footwork,watch the planting of the lead heel,good reason to have yr lead foot flared in a starting from static position hitting something on the ground,the twirl you speak of Martin is that containment and trying to hit with the back side of the club in golf terms
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30668

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the instrument gets outside alittle but the arms,hands never do,their inside were all the power and speed is,
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30669

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Incidently Williams believed in swinging slightly up on everything,up into the baseball,because he learned that the pitched ball is always dropping,so slightly up incresed his chances of hitting dead on
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30671

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Darn if williams doesnt have the vapor trail Bradley talks about
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30672

  • Martin Ayers
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@MM
Good stuff mate.
alan wrote:
the instrument gets outside alittle but the arms,hands never do,their inside were all the power and speed is,
The instrument in reality is ALWAYS outside....we are always inside...just a point I would like to make. It's important to be aware of the actual location of things. I think we get hooked up on the traditional view of the Golf swing or any swing....from the players perspective they should note that the club is always outside them and IN/OUT is as much a product of UP/DOWN and the RATE of things as it is anything else.

e.g when I suggested to Grady to keep his left knee inside his left foot....I always teach from the players perspective over the ball....

Alan, as for containment...yes that's it. Hitting with the back of the club is merely the ultra extreme of that perspective. Cheers.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30673

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Was walking to my auto tonight with the setting sun at my back after a long day in the cold when I was somewhat blinded by the sun's magnificent glare dancing off this directive by the side of the winding road.

You gotta' follow the sun they say: Two way left turn in opposite directions.....with....a little containment both ways.

Center cut only of course, from the center lane B)

centerlane.jpg
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30674

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I think I get what yr saying,about always outside,from the players point of veiw,and your veiw,i gues what i mean by outside thought would be behind ,stuck from players veiw,or some people like to think of it of keeping the club in front of you at all times,,which from yr pt its outside of them always,yes it is,im talking front when I say inside,in between,feet,inside the outside of yr shoulders,thats what i mean by inside,where yr power is,where you would throw punches from,
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30675

  • Bradley Hughes
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Ted Williams & Ben Hogan.....look a hair different because one is hitting the ball at waist high and the other is hitting the ball at ground level
shoulders and hips match close in unison of rotation with lower ground resistance....and hey!!!....where did the hands go?
It is extremely evident how much longer Hogan and Williams kept the face/bat pointing targetwards

bentedlines.jpg


entirely different to this stuff


HoganBubba1_2012-04-21_2012-04-24.jpg
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Bradley Hughes.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30676

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ut I get what yr saying Martin,you dont want people to get confused by my bassakward way of veiwing saying things,very,very good point,im not an instructor and im not trying to instruct anyone,ill leave that to you professionals,yr right,better not to confuse people
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30678

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Bradley Hughes wrote:
Ted Williams & Ben Hogan.....look a hair different because one is hitting the ball at waist high and the other is hitting the ball at ground level
shoulders and hips match close in unison of rotation with lower ground resistance....and hey!!!....where did the hands go?
It is extremely evident how much longer Hogan and Williams kept the face/bat pointing targetwards

bentedlines.jpg


entirely different to this stuff


HoganBubba1_2012-04-21_2012-04-24.jpg
would you say Bubbas using a bullwhip swing,speed generated by cocking uncockin,snapping,Hogan of course hitting it with his whole body
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30679

  • Martin Ayers
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alan wrote:
ut I get what yr saying Martin,you dont want people to get confused by my bassakward way of veiwing saying things,very,very good point,im not an instructor and im not trying to instruct anyone,ill leave that to you professionals,yr right,better not to confuse people
Now Alan..I was not saying that at all.
I only ever add what I can to the discussion by offering a different perspective that I have found helpful to people. My intent was certainly not to chastise you. I'm sorry you took it that way.

MOST discussion on these forums is based on either the DTL or FO perspective of a Golf swing from a FIXED camera position. I was merely pointing out that this is a narrow field of view and I have found it's helpful to think of a different perspective....that of the one we face when actually playing the game.

You can observe the swing from any angle...but you can only perform it from one
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30681

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didnt take it as chastisement at all,giving you credit for trying to keep folks from being confused,never entered my mind you were correcting me,you wre just making sure folks didnt get confused and understood
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by alan.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30682

  • Martin Ayers
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right.......ok. Well don't do it again. /sarcasm
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 7 months ago #30683

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when im over the ball,addressing ,i veiw the club as inside,when i pratice containment,its ok if the clubhead gets outside,by that i mean to the sideof my shoulders,i dont want the shaft the handle and therefore my arms which are attached to the club to get outsideif i does,im whacked,no feel for the face ,out of sync,stuck,push or flip or standup are my choices
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