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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30684

  • 1lovegolf24
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What I think is confusing, and not at all necessary, is to tell someone to swing inside to out. Why have the mind worry about something that comes naturally.

Hogan said the only thing complicated about the swing is the explanation. I can see why he said this. I am not sayinf we should not try to understand the swing for ourselves, and what makes it work.

IMO, Instinct and intent and feels will guide any swing better than made up termonolgy to explain what we should be thinking about, at least for me.

That is why Ernest Jones, Mr. Melhorn were great teachers.

Anyway, that is the most important thing I have learned, while diggin here in the Dirt, and what has worked for me.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin, it is time to move on.

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30685

  • Grady Dickens
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Glad I brought up Mehlhorn because I had never seen his book. Of the bullets, 11 and 15 got me thinking. 26 and 27 ( I may be one number off...the ones about taking two clubs less for a draw and two clubs more for a fade) surprised me. I could see a Half a club but not two whole clubs! Oh and 35...don't let Mark see tat one. LOL.

Reading all of them I get the sense that Mehlhorn was a magician with the club, preferring control to distance. I am sure he could belt it but it seems he really worked his irons...generally only going at 2/3rds. That is interesting because today on the ABS site in the Hogan thread (which is public) there is a long Golf Digest article from back in the day about Hogan. Lots of Hogan quotes...he was interviewed for the piece. One observer ( I can't remember who) said Hogan didn't swing the golf club...he hit the golf ball...and went on to call Hogan a slasher. Much of the article got into how long Hogan was...particularly for his size. Bradley may have put the article up. If so perhaps he could post it here as well. It is just interesting given its point of view to contrast it with Mehlhorn's philosophy.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30686

  • Grady Dickens
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Double post.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Grady Dickens.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30687

  • Martin Ayers
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Alan...I think I see what you mean as inside and outside...you mean the confines of your body?
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Martin Ayers.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30688

  • Bradley Hughes
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
What I think is confusing, and not at all necessary, is to tell someone to swing inside to out. Why have the mind worry about something that comes naturally.

1lovegolf24

You sure about that Mark?
The driving ranges and golf courses of the world are practically littered with outside to in actions physically and visually
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Bradley Hughes.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30691

  • alan
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Martin Ayers wrote:
Alan...I think I see what you mean as inside and outside...you mean the confines of your body?
in a sense Martin,i see it that way,but a bit more complex than that,if me and you were goining to get in afight,,i woud keep you lined up to my inside,and not let you line me up,if the person your trying to hit is lined up on yr inside,you can use ground forces,hips,butt,lats ,triceps,pectorals,evrything to fluids shockwave you,if i line you upp outside,and hit you just arm and glancing blow
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30692

  • alan
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a vice versa,if you dont want to be hit hard,you orientate yourself outside of your opponent which takes away his inside,so hid blow gets outside thus weak awkward,glancing,easily defended,this is what boxers are doing dancing around trying to get aguy lined up on their inside,the other guy trying to avoid that while lining that guy up on his inside
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30693

  • alan
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My Dad used to make me box all the neighborhood guys even if they were older bigger and stronger,thus when i say keeps the instrument inside,its kinda a chi thing,a containment thing,if that makes sense,where one has the most control,the most power over his instrument,its an orientation type internal thought,for me,in reality yr right the instrument is outside us,we are swinging it up and dow around and around on our outside
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by alan.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30694

  • 1lovegolf24
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Bradley Hughes wrote:
1lovegolf24 wrote:
What I think is confusing, and not at all necessary, is to tell someone to swing inside to out. Why have the mind worry about something that comes naturally.

1lovegolf24

You sure about that Mark?
The driving ranges and golf courses of the world are practically littered with outside to in actions physically and visually

Mr. Hughes,

I am absolutely sure.

For example, when one swings their arms in a circle, do they swing inside to out, or outside to in? I don't need to think about it.

As far as the ranges, I see people trying to run, before they can walk. Any advanced motion will be the same basic motion, with practice, IMO.

Golf is simple! However, it takes time to acclimate the extra weight we swing, but the motion does not change, at least for me.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30695

  • Bob
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alan wrote:
phily wrote:
...few posts back we were talking baseball swing, this clip stood out to me from the video Mike posted on his Sevam1 blog sevam1.blogspot.com/2008/10/ted-williams...gan-of-baseball.html

I like his footwork,watch the planting of the lead heel,good reason to have yr lead foot flared in a starting from static position hitting something on the ground,the twirl you speak of Martin is that containment and trying to hit with the back side of the club in golf terms

Teds arm looks high to me , I dont see them dropping that much if any.

Bob
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30696

  • svsvincenzo
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Bradley Hughes wrote:
1lovegolf24 wrote:
What I think is confusing, and not at all necessary, is to tell someone to swing inside to out. Why have the mind worry about something that comes naturally.

1lovegolf24

You sure about that Mark?
The driving ranges and golf courses of the world are practically littered with outside to in actions physically and visually

Mr. Hughes,

I am absolutely sure.

For example, when one swings their arms in a circle, do they swing inside to out, or outside to in? I don't need to think about it.

As far as the ranges, I see people trying to run, before they can walk. Any advanced motion will be the same basic motion, with practice, IMO.

Golf is simple! However, it takes time to acclimate the extra weight we swing, but the motion does not change, at least for me.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

When a golfer says in to out swing, such as Hogan, it meant the baseline (path of the clubhead at impact zone) is in to out, or to be more precise, the clubhead is coming into the ball from inside of targetline. Of course every golfer's clubhead is coming from inside from the top. But many, especially beginners, goes from inside (based on your understanding which is correct), but eventually ther clubhead goes outside the targetline and comes into the ball from outside of targetline into the ball---what is commonly called out to in.

Re Hogan, the most efficient and powerful way to swing the club is to have a draw swing (in terms of mechanics). Then you just manage the lefts. Both are not easy.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30697

  • svsvincenzo
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Bob wrote:
alan wrote:
phily wrote:
...few posts back we were talking baseball swing, this clip stood out to me from the video Mike posted on his Sevam1 blog sevam1.blogspot.com/2008/10/ted-williams...gan-of-baseball.html

I like his footwork,watch the planting of the lead heel,good reason to have yr lead foot flared in a starting from static position hitting something on the ground,the twirl you speak of Martin is that containment and trying to hit with the back side of the club in golf terms

Teds arm looks high to me , I dont see them dropping that much if any.

Bob

Should he drop it down more? Why?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30698

  • alan
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somebody posted a video of a guy ,an old golf pro giving a lesson,Roger Dunn was the guys name he was hitting them with just his right hand,comes inside gather the ball with the clubfaces slings it DTl as club is going outside the ball to the right,i bet that fels like kinda puting right to left spin on the ball from outside the line
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30699

  • Tapio Santala
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Ron Smith wrote:
Tapio, I have been watching your videos and reading your explanations of pronation/supination, dorsi flexion, palmar flexion, ulnar deviation and radial deviation and have to say you are spot on!!!

Unfortunately, too many people seem to pass over your info because I they think it is too hard/too technical to read. Sort of like math is hard!!! :unsure: If they only spent the time and brain power to truly understand what you are saying, they could have a more precise understanding and vocabulary to speak about the swing instead of the usual vague pronate/supinate statements when they really mean something else.

Please keep on with what you are doing. You are helping more people than you know. :) In fact, your descriptions of terminology allowed me to describe below what I think Hogan did.


I have read 5 Lessons dozens of times and Hogans' (or his ghost writers') explanation of pronation/supination never set right with me. I couldn't reconcile what he said versus what I saw him doing in video or even the book. Your view that Hogan didn't have alot of pronation/supination in his swing I think is correct. I have looked for that massive pronation/supination everyone talks about but never really see it in his swing. When I see videos of him, and I've seen alot, this is what I see.

Thanks Ron and glad to hear that. And I also know it's quite complicated but it just have to be that way when written. When teaching it ti can be more simple.

Your thoughts about RD and UD are at least interesting and I think there is something in it. We are use to see that great lag in Hogans swing but I think big part of that is also distortion and result of flattening the shaft. I have to think it for a while, but that what you said can be part of that combination. Always interested to see new ideas.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30702

  • phily
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alan wrote:
somebody posted a video of a guy ,an old golf pro giving a lesson,Roger Dunn was the guys name he was hitting them with just his right hand,comes inside gather the ball with the clubfaces slings it DTl as club is going outside the ball to the right,i bet that fels like kinda puting right to left spin on the ball from outside the line

Years ago I used to frequent the range where Roger Dunn teaches and would often listen to him give lessons - this was back when Mike Austin was teaching there too. Besides talking mostly about himself during every lesson his main instruction was how the swing was like 'chopping wood'.
The right arm swing drill was his main and only drill 'I' ever heard or saw him use.
Sorry if I don't have a kind word for the man but hearing his same stories repeated over & over to gullible novices that never improved was both an annoyance (to me as well as others) and left an impression.

When I saw that same video a while back I called a buddy that still lives in the area. He said that the poster that featured Roger in his movie is perhaps the most advanced golfer he has ever seen Roger work with by miles. He also mentioned that Roger is now quite advanced in age. So if anyone wants to chat with him by phone about that drill, now may be a good time.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30703

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Bradley Hughes wrote:
Ted Williams & Ben Hogan.....look a hair different because one is hitting the ball at waist high and the other is hitting the ball at ground level
shoulders and hips match close in unison of rotation with lower ground resistance....and hey!!!....where did the hands go?
It is extremely evident how much longer Hogan and Williams kept the face/bat pointing targetwards

bentedlines.jpg


entirely different to this stuff


HoganBubba1_2012-04-21_2012-04-24.jpg

I think the main difference in thoughts is that Hogan was swinging the shaft (whole club) and Bubba is swinging the club head. Hogan tried to keep the face side of the shaft pointing to the target and tried to resist its turning.

That is one of the biggest keystones in my teaching. Hit the big ball with your shaft.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30705

  • Bradley Hughes
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Tapio Santala wrote:

HoganBubba1_2012-04-21_2012-04-24.jpg


I think the main difference in thoughts is that Hogan was swinging the shaft (whole club) and Bubba is swinging the club head. Hogan tried to keep the face side of the shaft pointing to the target and tried to resist its turning.

That is one of the biggest keystones in my teaching. Hit the big ball with your shaft.

This is exactly right......and what I have talked about since I stepped foot into the 'dirt'... you PRESSURE the shaft into impact and beyond.....post impact is so important as what happens there shows us exactly what was happening into impact...vapor trail..chain reaction..however you want to phrase it.
Festus has talked about this a lot too...the other side of the rainbow..the rocket launch.......

I will add some more about this on my thread
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Bradley Hughes.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30707

  • Dean Mitchell
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Hit the big ball with the shaft. Fantastic feel/thought.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30710

  • Cy
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Mike Maves wrote:

I think you've got something there. To quote Mehlhorn "In golf, you can feel things 100 times better than any eye can see and that includes the camera eye."

Mike, the same view expressed by Ernest Jones: " Swing is a matter of "feel", not sight!".
Mehlhorn "naturalist" approach is very close to Jones "Swing The Clubhead" method. I think if you tie Jones/Mehlhorn "feel" and "natural" approach with Hogan's physical/mechanical/body approach then you may find golf's Holy Grail. I believe there is a "connection" between two approaches.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30711

  • 1lovegolf24
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Dean Mitchell wrote:
Hit the big ball with the shaft. Fantastic feel/thought.

Mr. Mitchell,

To be honest, that is a perfectly good way to think about the swing and one of the hardest things for me to learn about the club.

Also, just as they teach in baseball, swing the hands at the ball can work also.

A very smart golfer once said that Hogan drove the hosel at the ball.

I have always, or at least my hands,have wanted to balance and or swing the weight. Unfortunately, that entails swinging the hosel at the ball, or the shaft.

The hard part, and where the trust comes in, at least for me is that the face will close from the natural motion of the body, dynamics of the club, and of course the grip.

However, and for me, I know that the hands play a large part in squaring the club face, but not a conscience one., anymore. Intent, has already taken care of that. Based on ball flight laws, or if you have ever played handball, ping pong, the spin you wish to impart on the ball is the samein golf and a little of what goes through my mind and into the grip, waggle and intent.

I know this may not be what your post was ment to solicit, but i thought I would throw it out there.

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

PS As the hands go, so does the face of the club.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30712

  • Mike Maves
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Cy wrote:
Mike Maves wrote:

I think you've got something there. To quote Mehlhorn "In golf, you can feel things 100 times better than any eye can see and that includes the camera eye."

Mike, the same view expressed by Ernest Jones: " Swing is a matter of "feel", not sight!".
Mehlhorn "naturalist" approach is very close to Jones "Swing The Clubhead" method. I think if you tie Jones/Mehlhorn "feel" and "natural" approach with Hogan's physical/mechanical/body approach then you may find golf's Holy Grail. I believe there is a "connection" between two approaches.

Absolutely there is a connection and in short you've identified the point of this website....To find out where all of the many different approaches to instruction and learning (both historical and current) converge to create a greater whole.

That is why we are all here.

MM
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30727

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Drew Art wrote:
Ron Smith wrote:
4 - In the transition, the left wrist has ulnar deviation that releases the "cupped" wrist and puts it into a palmar flexion. This is where Hogan says he supinates or bows the left wrist on the way down. There maybe some left forearm pronation to lay off the club from the top too. This pushes the right hand/right elbow down and into the body. The so called "free ride down". Some like to call this the gravity drop but I don't think Hogan just let it fall. This would involve timing and waiting. He pushed down with the left wrist and pulled down with the right elbow. This got his right elbow on his right hip.

Why would Hogan (or you) want to release the angles in transition?

Hogan had very late release and the cup in the left wrist is still there when the hands are in front of the right thigh. Check the gifs.

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/forum/52-p...t=25&start=125#17189

To the extent there is any move from cupped left wrist into palmar flexion, it happens in an instant, very late in the DS... not in transition.

I'm not saying it instantaneous ulnar deviation/palmar flexion at the transition at top but a slow move that happens from the top to approaching impact. Since the ulnar deviation is slow, the dorisflexion still shows on the way down. That's how he arrived in that "supinated/bowed" left wrist at impact. I don't think he did it from just cupped wrist to palmar flexion only right before impact. I think it was as much about the ulnar deviation as it was the palmar flexion. That's also why I say his right wrist keeps the dorsiflexion while resisting the ulnar deviation. This combination keeps the angle or even makes it looks like it increases it from the FO view.

Since posting this yesterday I have been going through the motions of what I have described with a club and they feel like a very Hoganesque swing. In fact, this feels the most like Hogan I have ever felt. Not that I think I swing like Hogan. Feel vs. Real and all that. I'll have to try to take it to the course and see if it does anything other than maybe disappoint and frustrate me. :laugh:

BTW. I, like probably alot of you, have been trying to get a swing like Hogan for years. Don't know how many times I've found and lost the "secret" on the course. :pinch:
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30734

  • Cy
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Mike Maves wrote:
Absolutely there is a connection and in short you've identified the point of this website....To find out where all of the many different approaches to instruction and learning (both historical and current) converge to create a greater whole.

That is why we are all here.

MM

Thanks to you and Elk, SITD is a great golf social network and learning place. The only requirement is to be open minded to different and seemingly opposing views and ideas.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30736

  • Mike Maves
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Cy wrote:
Mike Maves wrote:
Absolutely there is a connection and in short you've identified the point of this website....To find out where all of the many different approaches to instruction and learning (both historical and current) converge to create a greater whole.

That is why we are all here.

MM

Thanks to you and Elk, SITD is a great golf social network and learning place. The only requirement is to be open minded to different and seemingly opposing views and ideas.

Thank you Cy and I agree. If we can have respect for the power of ideas and respect for one another then this place will succeed in helping people improve and enjoy the game more.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #30737

  • Grady Dickens
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Well someone on my YouTube channel alerted me to the fact that old Jeffy is having some fun with my swing, Martin's swing and Mike (actually getting ugly there) on his site. Hey it is his site so he can do as he wishes. I don't know if I can go on after his bitting analysis! Not.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Grady Dickens.
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