Secret In The Dirt - Golf's Greatest Social Network

Joachim Yngvesson wrote:


We need a "thumbs down" button and a "message score" concept. When the "message score" is voted down by N users, it will disappear from the general public's view, unless the general public sets their "message score" threshold to that negative level.

Pretty much what is used in the meta-moderation scheme at Slashdot.

BTW, ray, thumbs down. Take it to PM and keep the thread on Hogan.

Well said drew, nailed it I think. All the greats had or have a go-to shot that holds up. Great comments

Charles Lee wrote:





Is that what you just did? Is this your p.m. to me?

To all the Dirters that have made this thread what it is, I sincerely thank you. , especially for Mr. Maves and his team for providing us this opportunuity and place to share our passion for golf.

However, some have taken advatage of his generosity, some have tried to get it shut down and someone evn once posted here that they thought this thread would ultimately be, and I quote;, "A wash". I must dissagree and truely believe, the best is yet to come. At least that is my hope, if we can manage to get along, like gentlemen.

Of course, along the way, over 5,500 posts, 200,000 views, there have been some dissagreements. What did you expect. Passions have a way with getting the better of us all, at some time or another, we're human.

However, Mr. Maves has his limits, those that are not here anymore, rightly so or not, can attest to that.

Now obviously I don't make the rules around here, so I am requesting that should the occassion arise that a debate or dissagreement cannot be settled or worked out, take it private. Pretty simple and straight forward request.

As far as the future of this thread and the way it is run, I am sure Mr. Maves will come up with something.

This site works, as does this thread, so please remember how fortunate we are to be here.

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Oh! BTW, PS and all that, Good Luck and Keep Diggin

Well put there MArk I am happy for you. The thread has gotten big no doubt. The thread while at times I was one of those. Also seeing how it is ME that you started the WHILE ON VACATION I SPOKE WITH A FRIEND THING STARTED. I wanted it to go away myself. While yes it gets all over the place and heated up. That is what is needed a place for people to go and GET IT OFF THEIR CHEST. This fact I HAVE LEARNED IS A FACT anywhere you go. It is also a thread where you can go get it on your chest as I have been the guy on both sides and be first to admit both ways. We can all say what we like about you Mark but I will say this. You are a man that knows NO QUIT and a man that LOVES GOLF for that I give you as much respect now as I do Mike. Sticking to what you believe in even when you know you have not found all you want to find is the hardest thing anyone of us will ever do in anything. Being a student of MOTION you are being a tester of a peoples WILL, you are that too in here. Sometimes being what some of us SMART GUYS NEED so we can be called out is not a bad thing in fact its a breath of fresh air in Golf. No matter what there will always be a thread here or there that has its share of arguments this is a fact no different then any other FACTS that have been offered here. People are drawn to HEATED DISCUSSION and or DEBATES. It is the other natural thing in us lots of reasons. The difference is that we here do not go out looking for the fights like I saw this Jeff guy doing with some people here and other places. That is what makes this place this place. THE DIRT needs that area to let some chips fall where they may.

I am telling you all right here right now. The SECRET IN THE DIRT WEBSITE will be the biggest thing in Golf oneday that is a fact. While I dont post here anymore I am here all the time. Lee Comeauxs time and 15 minutes where up a long time ago. I never dreamed what would come from this place and the people I now have in my life. While the Dirt is finding its place I realize what mine is now. This forum has its place and people have every right as I did and do to call it like they see it. With that said I will say this there are places in here I have never even been or read and why is because IT IS MY CHOICE NOT TO. I have read post that while made me want to go in there and voice an opinion I simply just went to places that intrested me more in here. Again back to the 15 minutes of fame thing there is a link in all of us for that. While some will always wonder about what guys like Mr. Hogan did or did not do there are a lot of people here who know the answers to that. We all want what we want in Golf and that is unique to each of us in alot of ways but identical in only one. WHat makes us work or this game work for us that is all we want.

Take CMOTION for instance, it is a totally right arm right hand right palm lever system with a presuure system in the feet requiring no rotation in the body only lift and push thrust.It has no single pivot nor is it a DOUBLE HINGED PIVOT it is a single rear driven LEVER. How MUCH RESEARCH AND DATA IS IN THE MARKET PLACE ON THAT. While there are guys here that could help me with gathering that data none are intrested believe me I HAVE BEGGED AND ASKED. That is Golf a "LETS JUST STICK TO THE TRADITIONAL IF YOU DONT MIND" that DATA IS ALL THAT MATTERS. Now how well do you think that thinking fits in here? While because of Mike Maves it is better understood and tolerated it is a total no even like anything else. Can you imagine the heated converstations on this one. WELL I AM OK WITH THAT NOW THERE WAS A TIME YES I WAS FRUSTRATED AS WELL. The questions needed to be asked are 180 away from Traditional but again because nobody had ever done it was not their fault they could not ask it. Cmotion or the push slap is another OPTION for everyone. I cannot control when and where that day comes that it will be in a category of here are your choices IF EVER but that is just the way things are. It will take a guy like MIKE to get things like that to a place where they have a chance. Way back in the beginnng in here was not that time. For reason of a lot to do with me and needing a system to present it in. Again all along I knew that it was not gonna be like any they have ever done so there goes that cycle again of explain it in traditional terms. YOU CANNOT. When I originally posted in here I had one BUCKET LIST GOAL. To meet MIKE MAVES IN PERSON that was it that was all nothing more what followed I was not ready for it was not my GOAL. I bet now know how to TRAIN OR EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT IT and handle it though, so I am thankful for that. Mike and I will meet one day I have no doubts on that.

The Dirt is heading down the path of one day these concepts will all have the own SECTION if you will and place in here. When it is at that place then I will be back in here a lot more posting. The DIrt is real enough to understand that we must explore the paths NEVER CHOSEN and realize that maybe just maybe what Golf is looking for has never been seen before or NOBODY HAS TRIED IT YET. The DIrt has more of a chance then any other to make the unthinkable thinkable. It has a LEADER in Mike that will allow that to happen. I will say this much as far as what I have noticed about websites there is only only thing I have issue with. That is people using or not at least poating their real name even if there avatar is something else. Hiding behind that is what is KILLING places like this. Either state who you are or take it somewhere else. Believe it or not a lot of those guys have things of great value to say but the mere fact they stay hidden kills any hope of us believeing in them and that is the truth. So when you see a guy like the jeffs of the world or Ill throw me in there before you get all worked up really read what he is saying or posting he may be trying to get your attention if not then try this. MOVE ON. If he says something that gets your attention then grill him if he is for real he will explain it further if he is not then that will come out too.

I look at it this way. Im heading out of town this weekend and where I am going there is a big INTERNET TEACHER GUY there. Well I am going to personally go up to him and introduce myself and let him know I am up for his challenge. I want him to test what I know because it is in the test of me I will learn all about him. Golf needs to trash the word CANNOT. I will be asking him what CANNOT happen this weekend and then do it and then his CANNOT needs to be explained why it is now a CAN. Now i am traveling there for work reasons but I will take the time to go see him in person. This is only for me to open his eyes not for me to prove CMOTION or anything else right or wrong. To open a guys eyes to what really can be in Golf for all of us. We just need to let people have choices that is THE NEW GOLF. People having Choices actually makes them think about it and study it therefore learn it now Golf is improving. I shot a video last night for the guys at my site and said this very simple statement. Good ballstriking will beat GREAT BALL STRIKING everyday for ever. It is the Good ball striking that over ones lifetime gets them labeled as a great ball striker. All I was trying to let them know is that it is best to be good and in fact that gives them hope and a new way to look at things. I personally strive to be a GOOD ball Striker and I have found that day in and out. I got away from that because of my 15 minutes of FAME.

sO MARK AGAIN i AM HAPPY FOR THE SUCCESS OF THE THREAD AND HOW IT HAS GROWN AND GOT PEOPLE EMOTIONAL ABOUT GOLF AGAIN AND THAT IS NOT SO BAD. Before I leave in the spirit of NEEDELING in this thread I want to say this MARK. ONLY 200K views STILL 2nd. But I cannot wait till you get to #1 thats the honest truth. Have a great week all. GO DIRT.......

Lee Comeaux

Mr. Comeaux,

It is good to hear from you as usaul, and I thank you for the kind words as well as large dose of the truth.

Your mention of our conversation, as to why I started this thread, is the part that makes me believe that someday, hopefully here in the Dirt, we will all have the privialedge to fully understand what Hogan's "Ultimate secret was, or maybe I should have called it Comeaux's ultimate secret. As was my hopes, the best is yet to come, but I cannot explain it, I did not discover it, and I am still trying to figure out how to apply it.

As far as what Lee Comeaux has found for himself, and freely shares with others, about the swing motion, (CMOTION). It works. I believe, through the unique grip, you have found a solution to execute an accelerating motion that produces max COR.

I have picked your brain for the better part of 2 years now, and honestly have to say, and in my ,most humble opinion, have only one rival, when it comes to ball striking and efficiency in a swing motion. Unfortunately, that rival is no longer with us.

If you really want to know the truth, this thread can get a million views and many will have been helped from sharing their info and experiences, passion for Hogan's swing and or secret, but the best info on the net, that I have ever come across, is the Push, Slap, CMOTION threads.

BTW, I know ulovegolf2

Good Luck my friend

Mark, 1lovegolf24

LOL Mark -

This thread has come a long, long way from your dangling this carrot:

"I will not divulge. . . the specifics of the secret... yet as Hogan said, "If I told you where to look, ", you would be able to see it. , litrally."

to

"someday, hopefully here in the Dirt, we will all have the privialedge to fully understand what Hogan's "Ultimate secret was, "

ROFL

This thread is the Ultimate crazy internet Hogan thread, from egyiptian pyramids, to texas train stations, to holiday puzzles, to guys from all corners of the earth getting huffy, it is a spectacle greater than the illusion of a natural golf swing, pure entertainment. Mindless, meaningless entertainment.

Love it.

Drew Art wrote:



Mr. Art,

As usual thanks for sharing.

As for my impression,

"Whatever it takes, by any means necessary, driven by faith in ones self and passion, one may succeed".

Most discoveries are made by accident,and learning is a proccess of effort and thought and sacrifice..

Just Dig.

Having said that, "Mindless and meaningless " this thread is not, at least not to me. Entertaining, yes. learning should be fun, it takes the edge off. Enjoy the journey, smile, it might feel good.

"Ultimately", It works and that is what is most important. Isn't it?

BTW, the swing motion is a natural thing. Has been and always will be, at least for me.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

AWESOME, DUDE.

Whenever the last post in this thread is reached, I hope it has this picture in it:



I'm sure the analysis of the clown farting over his left heel will not be far behind this post.

Keep digging, 'cause aerating this old compost pile will make something really good for the garden.

I agree with Drew. It's been like entertainment for me. The thread has lots of twists and turns much like a soap opera, or a professional wrestling match...complete with good guys and villains. Personally, I don't believe in an Ultimate Secret. But if it keeps you driven to 'dig it out', go for it. But keep in mind it's usually better to work smarter than harder.

Todd Rammer wrote:



Mr. Rammer,

Thanks for your post and support. How is your swing comming along. Working on anything new?

I have a question, and there is no right or wrong answer, because first of all, I don't know the answer, and second, I have never heard an answer that related to something Hogan said.

The question is, "Why did Hogan move his head the way he did?" So far there have been to opinions on the motion of the head, but not particuarly why Hogan did it.

The first was Lee. Something to the effect that he wanted to hear the hit. Second, from Gerry Hogan was, something to the effectof, "If we turn to enter a doorway, the head turns first, then the hand follows.

Both make sense, but because I have never read anything from Hogan on the matter, I suspect there is something more.

I have worked for awhile on this motion, and for what is is worth, there seems to be something quite natural in the way it makes the swing flow.

I was hoping someone else out there can offer some insight to Hogan's reason for the head motion?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Hey Mark,

I am working on playing golf. By that I mean I am working so that I have time to go out and play. I am working on the swing a bit, but I'm really trying to understand how I feel about things.

Mark, you seem like a nice guy who is really passionate about golf and learning it. I think tagging something as Hogan's Ultimate Secret will naturally generate a ton of views from people looking for a nugget. Perhaps that was you intention to get the ball rolling, I don't know. I think when it comes to 'secrets', only the person with it really knows for sure. I guess I'm saying that I am very interested in Hogan, but I'm more interested in creating my own 'secrets', which basically ends up being something only I can feel or see. I think it was that way to Hogan too, who knows?

Why did Hogan's head move the way it did? I don't know, really. Does anyone know for sure? I think maybe he was using it as a 'containment check', if that makes sense. What do you think?

Thanks.

P.S. Please call me Todd. Mr. Rammer seems way too formal.

Mark,

I have a theory about his head motion. Disclaimer: I've never tried this nor do I know if Hogan did it, it's just a theory I have as to why he might have moved his head the way he did. And frankly, speculation in regards to Hogan is fun.

He moves his head to be able to maintain maximum load longer in transition.

An analogy: You are hunting deer with a bow. You have your target in sight and pull back to max stretch just as the deer moves to your left. Now you quickly rotate your entire assembly (head included) to your left and fire and still hit your target. But what would have happened if you just shifted your eyes only with the assembly and left the head at it's old position? You would lose your max strecth and your arrow would lose velocity.

My theory is that Hogan moves his head off the ball as an anticpatory move so that he can rotate his head back with his entire stretched assembly in transition, so as to not lose the max stretch too early- and thus he can maximize his potential power.

We've all seen the Coleman beach video where he definitely rotates his head at the start of transition. To me it appears to rotate at the same rate as his entire assembly.

Hey Lazar, this will be only indirectly related to your post; it's more related to the role of the eyes and our muscular intention. The real-world analogy is when performing a heavy squat or deadlift. Proper coaching has shown that one looks up toward the ceiling during the lifting phase. That small move of the eyes upwards increases recruitment of the spinal erectors; it is the visual intent of "upwards" to recruit the right muscles to get oneself "upwards." I think there was an EMG study for this; one can test it out easily. Perform a deadlift (or full squat) while looking downwards. You'll instantly lose neural drive for the lift.

Relating this to Hogan, the head and eyeline shift must have some role in his body's return to his impact/delivery line. Possibly, I think I saw this discussed long ago in this very thread The head shift could also be his own idiosyncrasy due to his greatly diminished left eye acuity post-accident.

To go about answering this question of the head:

Perhaps observing Hogan's head as it moves would lead to the conclusion that the head is NOT leading in the action of the Hogan's swing, but simply a platform in which to attain some relative stability and relatively consistent perception of where the body is in space (proprioception), to measure the distance and the spatial relationship to the ball. Perhaps the motion of the head is result of it being an appendage on the top of (and in front of) the spine along which roughly defines the axis rotation down though the tailbone, running nearly through the COG in the body (at least before the arms start moving about. So, perhaps as the tailbone moves, the head may moves responsively and somewhat opposite directionally (if one was looking from the bird's eye perspective.

Second point: Was hogan left-eye dominant? Not sure. Perhaps if we could find out somehow whether he hunted white tails with Demaret firing a shotgun off his left shoulder, we would know for sure, but I haven't seen that info (yet). So, no idea. However, I would guess that he was LED. Let's assume for sake of discussion that he was LED, and we know he ws right handed.

Let's further assume that being right handed and LED, he used the right brain in the traditional manner that is described in the McGilchrist book (the master and his emmissary). That book has some very interesting factual descriptions about the role of the left-eye (connected to the right brain) visual role in processing information and stimulus, including the role of the peripheral vision in the left eye and the processing of such stimulii by the right brain.

McGilchrist writes:

"It follows that in almost every case what is new must first be present in the right hemisphere [of the brain], before it may come into focus for the left. For one thing, the right hemisphere alone attends to the peripheral field of vision from which new experience tends to come; only the right hemisphere can direct attention to what comes to us from the edges of our awareness, regardless of side."

Being LED and right-handed myself, I find it interesting that with my head in a certain position, I can actually see the ball depart from the strike if it is viewed from the peripheral vision of the left eye, but I cannot see depart from the strike if I am looking directly at it, even directly out of the left eye.

So too, you can see try this test of looking at the light of a distant star when you perceive it in the peripheral vision where it will appear brighter than if you are looking directly at it.

The Yale Jole photos of Hogan (high speed taken at the angle from below) appear to show Hogan's eyes open and being focused somewhat to his right on contact the ball, so possibly, (speculating here) Hogan liked to watch the ball leave the clubface with the peripheral vision of his left eye.

www.secretinthedirt.com/media/kunena/att...accb003c23_large.jpg

www.secretinthedirt.com/media/kunena/att...large_2011-08-25.jpg

This would make sense to me, but I have no idea.

Drew, I agree -

The absurdity of the title of this thread is why it was and is successful.
It's a clearing house with no specific ownership or agenda (that's taken seriously) allowing pro's and novices and everyone in between to take part.
It's become the default thread, nothing more. Everyone who does take part in it makes it what it is, momentarily turning it into what they want it to be.
200k views isn't cause to take note it's just a number. Hamsters on YouTube can do better in one week.

Lazar Mioloslavlevski,

That would make sense from a mechanics point of view, and one i did not consider. Thanks.

@ Charles Lee,

The weight lifting analogy is spot on. I love squats and from experience, if you don't look up, your a@@ will be the only thing going up and that spells trouble.

I have a friend who is currently doing some research on eye and hand dominance and the role it may play in assisting one with their swing.

Persoanally, and this just speculation, but I used to and still do have a need to feel as if I am swaying back or loading up. From there I like the feel of taking everything forward and unloading it. The head movement does this for me, without all the unecessary body motion.

Does the head lead the body back in the BS and provide a path back to the ball both physically and visually?

I am not sure. However, there has been several confiming opinions that the head and the hands must return to the exact same spot as address in order to execute a repeatable swing.

One more small speculation. The samehead and hand position may not necessarily mean the same angle. Hogan himself said we do not swing on the same plane in the BS as we do in the DS.

@ Drew Art,

I must admit, I do not see the ball the same from the left side as I do from the right. From the left side, I must view it from more towards the top of the ball, and from the right side I must focus on the back and near the bottom of the ball to make decent contact. Not sure why, and that was mostly the reason for the question in the first place.

Thanks for your info.

@phily,

If I am not mistaken, you have enjoyed center stage, and rightly so, with your abilities to bring light to the swing that most of us have never seen, I have truely enjoyed it. Thanks.

The number of views thing was more of a gauge as to how civil this thread has been for the amount of traffic it recieves. I take no credit for that or anything else for that matter.

BTW, I take everyone's opionion, myself included very seriously, and find nothing absurd about the title, if taken in the context in which it was meant.

As far as the head, I believe BHSP offered the best gif, that captured Hogan's head motion, the rest of Hogan's motions are an effect of this motion.iMO. Thanks, BHSP.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

If there was any one secret to a golf swing, I am sure it is already in the SITD. There are so many great and wonderful swing and golf ideas in here for all golfers who are trying to improve and break par. Your secret to a good and consistent score in golf is in the SITD, just a pivot away! Thanks to Elk, Mike, Mr. Burke and all dirters who keep this site a great golf social and learning place.

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Yup, I've contributed to this thread - don't see your point?

Mark, taking my post personally and then in the next breath, speaking specifically about the thread, saying - "I take no credit for that or anything else for that matter" brings something up. It brings up something that I don't see as helping this thread or any thread - the saccharine cheerleading or pointless pontificating offered up every few pages - it can make a person cringe after a while. It sort of reinforces an image -

phily wrote:


I am sorry but that cracked me up....and shows how weird the priorities of many people have become.....



As for the eye / head movement / shifting I believe that does have a lot to do with eye dominance......Nicklaus was very left eyed dominant...so was Snead and they did a head tilt and could see the ball by keeping their head back with the left eye focusing on it




I am very right eyed dominant and cannot tilt my head and see the ball.....Duval and Annika I am guessing would be similar right eyed dominant by the way they move through the ball with their right eye having the majority of the focus

As for the eye / head movement / shifting I believe that does have a lot to do with eye dominance......Nicklaus was very left eyed dominant...so was Snead and they did a head tilt and could see the ball by keeping their head back with the left eye focusing on it


Bradley,

Glad you brought this to our attention. I recently read that only 1 % of right hand dominant people are left eye dominant.

Ben Hogan was named as one who was also left eye dominant.

Can anyone confirm?

As you say, makes a huge difference in how we swing and keep our eyes on the ball.

PS should have read Drews post before posting. Its been a long day.

Hey guys, it has been a blast. Thanks

The thread is and always has been yours, enjoy.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Drew Art wrote:


Wow. What I've been theorizing about for a long time. Gonna get that book. Thanks for this.

Good stuff Drew Art.

I am right handed and LED, but I shoot a rifle with the butt on the right shoulder- I guess stemming from romping in the fields as a kid playing 'army' and using the right hand as a pistol, so maybe going right handed in shooting imprinted at an early age. A friend of mine, a retired cop, said with me being LED, I should have learned to shoot with the butt on the left shoulder.

Even with that, my head moves similarly to Duval, but not quite as much, but has resulted with me never seeing the strike of the ball. The only time I ever "see it" is if I make note to try and see the strike, but then things get too disrupted and jammed up for me.

I think Ted Williams was RED and left handed batsman, which has been said creates an advantage in seeing the ball quicker from the pitcher's hand or something like that. I always kind of thought that it also allows one to follow the ball 'deeper' into the batter's box- at least that's what I sensed being a right handed baseball hitter and LED- because my left eye is 'in front of me' as opposed to the right eye being behind me.

Interesting topic and thoughts.

As for Duval and Annika. Is there a possiblity that the head moves in that manner because in nearly all target sports the last thing the eyes do is 'acquire the target'. Like ping-pong: as the ball is coming toward us from over the net. we acquire the ball and guage where we need to be for a return of the ball with a shot in mind. We then follow the ball to us, but only up to a point, then our eyes break that bond and acquire where we want to go with the ball. Billiards is the same way I reckon. the last thing our eyes do is 'acquire' the object ball. Maybe they are targeting a spot in front of them and their eyes are finding it.

Hey, that photo of the clown and Hogan...was that photoshop...great picture and fart comment.

George Knudson quote from the second chapter of his book...

"I had no idea that to maintain firm wrists was to properly use my legs. I ignored footwork also because I was stuck on golf's number one misconception ... keep the head still. I later learned that the head has to go where the body carries it. The head has nothing to do with the golf swing, the head has no purpose in the swing"