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TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31249

Grady Dickens wrote:
May have had a break through. Will do more field testing before I discuss it. But here is a still of a driver swing. Look like anyone?


DriverLaidOffinTransition.jpg

Good position Grady.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31267

  • 1lovegolf24
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Watch the head. Why? I am not sure if this was reactionary or deliberate, but IMO, worth a look.



Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31268

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im not sure what Hogan was doing with his head,whether something on purpose or reactionary,but in his live swings,hes doing something and i think it plays some kinda of role,i had this conversation with Lee a while back,i tried it it makes me hit everything dead right ,but its possible i was doing it wrong
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31270

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alan wrote:
im not sure what Hogan was doing with his head,whether something on purpose or reactionary,but in his live swings,hes doing something and i think it plays some kinda of role,i had this conversation with Lee a while back,i tried it it makes me hit everything dead right ,but its possible i was doing it wrong

It prevents him from losing his neck tilt that he set up during the forward press. That neck tilt prevents the shoulders from turning flat at impact and beyond. If shoulders turn flat, the baseline will be so left.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31271

  • Grady Dickens
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Got a nice that'a boy from John on this still:

That is a wonderful capture...perfectly executed.

Progress, progress.
It takes time.. but if you keep grinding on the drills, you will get it.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31272

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Stephen Vicente S. Vincenzo wrote:
alan wrote:
im not sure what Hogan was doing with his head,whether something on purpose or reactionary,but in his live swings,hes doing something and i think it plays some kinda of role,i had this conversation with Lee a while back,i tried it it makes me hit everything dead right ,but its possible i was doing it wrong

It prevents him from losing his neck tilt that he set up during the forward press. That neck tilt prevents the shoulders from turning flat at impact and beyond. If shoulders turn flat, the baseline will be so left.
Stephen,do you mean he tilts his neck towards his right foot and then what
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31274

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Grady Dickens wrote:
May have had a break through. Will do more field testing before I discuss it. But here is a still of a driver swing. Look like anyone?


DriverLaidOffinTransition.jpg
Grady,you appear to be in the slot.from here whats next,if you dont have to reveal to much ABS,,,,is it just turning through
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31278

  • Grady Dickens
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Alan wrote:
Grady,you appear to be in the slot.from here whats next,if you dont have to reveal to much ABS,,,,is it just turning through

@Alan:
At this point in transition I am pressuring DOWN into the ground. That VERTICAL pressure becomes HORIZONTAL when I get to the elbow plane and rotate through. You have to have something to rotate against. So you really need to use the inside muscles of your thighs to apply pressure. This creates stability and an opposing force for the torso to rotate against. And YES, you actively rotate the left forearm to get where I am here. I feel tremendous pressure in my arms and hands here. You have to learn how to retain that pressure for as long as you can (which I am still learning) and release that pressure (active firing).

There is a sequence that you have to learn...patience is a must...and you have to acquire spacial awareness and golf strength to execute. As Bradley has said there is a reason these old guys had strong forearms...they used them in the golf swing. It really is a chain reaction...but you can slow it down and learn the sequence.

The great thing about ABS is you have drills that allow you to acquire this spacial awareness and golf conditioning. Hitting golf balls is fine but honestly can get in the way of getting better. I can go out on the range and work on this stuff and hit just awful shots but feel good about it because I am taking one piece to the extreme to capture it on film knowing that doing that one thing will produce a very bad golf shot. Working on this extreme slotting should produce some shots that go right, for example. Indeed, I am not happy if I add a piece knowing that it should cause me to hit a right to right shot and I hit a good shot. That probably means I didn't take what I was working on far enough. Once I am hitting it right to right consistently I know I have that piece down (confirmed on video) and I can then just let my body react to produce a good golf shot.

FYI, this swing produced a good golf shot, but I hit several shots to right field first.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31280

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I think the back & forth head swivel you see exaggerated in the slow motion drill video is just Hogan momentarily turning his head to look at his arm / hand positions then turning back to recapture his impact target for the release 'tap'.


Grady,

Really like what you are doing, the way you are going about it, and the dedication to thoroughness.
I totally agree that drills advance you faster than just 'trying' to hit good shots during practice.

(let's see that full swing)


EDIT - here's what Grady is really going for :laugh: ...

Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31285

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phily wrote:
I think the back & forth head swivel you see exaggerated in the slow motion drill video is just Hogan momentarily turning his head to look at his arm / hand positions then turning back to recapture his impact target for the release 'tap'.


phily,

that may be so, since full speed dynamics are difficult to replicate in this drill.

If this video showed the very beginning of the swing, Hogan's head at address, leads the motion back, (hands), and then leads them in the DS, (hands). I believe in this drill sequence, he over shot the head position, in the DS, and had to readjust his head back to see the ball, (possibly) , but IMO, to view the hands comming down and through.

My theory is, we are allowed to see the hands come through, and forget about seeing the impact or clubhead. Any thought or focus on the shaft, beyond the hands and their feel is distracting and uneccessary, IMO, and at least for me. If I even for one second, think about the position of the clubhead, instead of feel the pressures in my hand, I lose the swing. Nothing good ever happens.

So in short, I am swinging the hands, not the club, and if my grip is correct, the outcome will have already been decided.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31304

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phily wrote:
I think the back & forth head swivel you see exaggerated in the slow motion drill video is just Hogan momentarily turning his head to look at his arm / hand positions then turning back to recapture his impact target for the release 'tap'.


Grady,

Really like what you are doing, the way you are going about it, and the dedication to thoroughness.
I totally agree that drills advance you faster than just 'trying' to hit good shots during practice.

(let's see that full swing)


EDIT - here's what Grady is really going for :laugh: ...


I'm actually referring to the actual swing. During takeaway, Hogan swivels his head and tilts his neck to the right a bit. Then he swivels just the head, maintaining the neck tilt, and begin "staring" back at the ball around halfway into the BS. He maintains that until impact.

Does he do the swivel in DS in that slow mo concentration drill in an actual swing?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31305

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Grady Dickens wrote:
Alan wrote:
Grady,you appear to be in the slot.from here whats next,if you dont have to reveal to much ABS,,,,is it just turning through

@Alan:
At this point in transition I am pressuring DOWN into the ground. That VERTICAL pressure becomes HORIZONTAL when I get to the elbow plane and rotate through. You have to have something to rotate against. So you really need to use the inside muscles of your thighs to apply pressure. This creates stability and an opposing force for the torso to rotate against. And YES, you actively rotate the left forearm to get where I am here. I feel tremendous pressure in my arms and hands here. You have to learn how to retain that pressure for as long as you can (which I am still learning) and release that pressure (active firing).

There is a sequence that you have to learn...patience is a must...and you have to acquire spacial awareness and golf strength to execute. As Bradley has said there is a reason these old guys had strong forearms...they used them in the golf swing. It really is a chain reaction...but you can slow it down and learn the sequence.

The great thing about ABS is you have drills that allow you to acquire this spacial awareness and golf conditioning. Hitting golf balls is fine but honestly can get in the way of getting better. I can go out on the range and work on this stuff and hit just awful shots but feel good about it because I am taking one piece to the extreme to capture it on film knowing that doing that one thing will produce a very bad golf shot. Working on this extreme slotting should produce some shots that go right, for example. Indeed, I am not happy if I add a piece knowing that it should cause me to hit a right to right shot and I hit a good shot. That probably means I didn't take what I was working on far enough. Once I am hitting it right to right consistently I know I have that piece down (confirmed on video) and I can then just let my body react to produce a good golf shot.

FYI, this swing produced a good golf shot, but I hit several shots to right field first.

When you say PRESSURE vertically down during transition, is that both feet?

If yes, how does that reconcile with Hogan saying in 5L that there must be enough lateral motion to move the body to the left and transfer WEIGHT from the R to L foot?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31310

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Hogan in 1970: "I wouldn't recommend that anybody swing the way I'm swinging," he said. "I used to go in on my left leg as much as anybody, or more. I've had to take the left leg out of the swing. I opened my stance and moved the ball back toward my right foot, and I lay back on my right leg. I used to play the ball up and go forward to catch it. If I played it up there now, I'd hit back of it every time. I still need a lot of work. I hit one heavy or thin occasionally."
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31311

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Drew Art wrote:
Hogan in 1970: "I wouldn't recommend that anybody swing the way I'm swinging," he said. "I used to go in on my left leg as much as anybody, or more. I've had to take the left leg out of the swing. I opened my stance and moved the ball back toward my right foot, and I lay back on my right leg. I used to play the ball up and go forward to catch it. If I played it up there now, I'd hit back of it every time. I still need a lot of work. I hit one heavy or thin occasionally."

Exactly what I'm saying Drew. Thanks for the quote. He wanted to be on the L pivot point ASAP. Same thing Schlee said.

So, Grady, why the PRESSURE? Only reason I can think that its needed is because the COG shift left will release PA2 very HARD, which you can't do anything about even how strong you are, and if your PA3 is small, which is not what Hogan did.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31312

  • Grady Dickens
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Regarding the feeling of vertical, this is an ABS teaching. Did Hogan feel it? I think he did or his right foot would not have dragged the way it did. Did others do it more aggressively? Sure. Check out Peter Senior. Hogan did emphasize the inside thigh muscles and you must heavily use those muscles to use this vertical pressure and convert it to horizontal pressure. From my experience you can't achieve an elbow plane "hitter" release without this use of the ground. Remember the extra spikes in Hogan's right shoe. I think he used the ground actively like this.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31314

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Stephen Vicente S. Vincenzo wrote:
Drew Art wrote:
Hogan in 1970: "I wouldn't recommend that anybody swing the way I'm swinging," he said. "I used to go in on my left leg as much as anybody, or more. I've had to take the left leg out of the swing. I opened my stance and moved the ball back toward my right foot, and I lay back on my right leg. I used to play the ball up and go forward to catch it. If I played it up there now, I'd hit back of it every time. I still need a lot of work. I hit one heavy or thin occasionally."

Exactly what I'm saying Drew. Thanks for the quote. He wanted to be on the L pivot point ASAP. Same thing Schlee said.

So, Grady, why the PRESSURE? Only reason I can think that its needed is because the COG shift left will release PA2 very HARD, which you can't do anything about even how strong you are, and if your PA3 is small, which is not what Hogan did.

You're welcome.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31316

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images.jpeg
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31317

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Regarding pressure -

Think about this: Hogan's golf shoes were flat leather soled shoes.

I seem to recall a discussion with a ski instructor about how you get a ski to run flat on the snow, you get that ankle flex moving the shin more foreward.

Check out some pictures and just focus on how much ankle flex (the shin to foot angle) Hogan, Sergio, and Knudson have.

It is a LOT!

Those feet are being pressured flat into the ground by the angles they created, and how they set the feet outside the knees.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31321

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Grady Dickens wrote:
Regarding the feeling of vertical, this is an ABS teaching. Did Hogan feel it? I think he did or his right foot would not have dragged the way it did. Did others do it more aggressively? Sure. Check out Peter Senior. Hogan did emphasize the inside thigh muscles and you must heavily use those muscles to use this vertical pressure and convert it to horizontal pressure. From my experience you can't achieve an elbow plane "hitter" release without this use of the ground. Remember the extra spikes in Hogan's right shoe. I think he used the ground actively like this.

Firstly, that extra spike comment was in Power Golf. With Drew's research/clarification re the actual date of secret being in 1947 instead of 1946, I think that makes PG more pre-secret.

Secondly, even if the spike still plays a part in Hogan's post-secret swing, I think that spike only serves to prevent that ball of R foot from slipping, like what Sevam has been saying, but Hogan didn't turn the R foot CW, it will do it by itself when you commence the BS. I think Hogan is turning the lower leg bones CCW, which makes the inner R foot and, hence, the ball of R foot, be more firmly pressured on the ground...also makes the R knee bent in as he said in 5L...which as I've said before helps him in his counter-fall and prevents swaying to the right of the hips center...

Then on Top, in transition...he just turn the hell...leaving the R foot behind and in the process dragging it along...the drag just tells me that, despite the counter-fall being lateral already, he still added more lateral due to the L side extensioning...

So, why the need for the intentional pressure on the R foot in TRANSITION? When you extend the L side, don't you just push off it? RE Hogan saying inside thigh muscles of R leg...he also said outside R thigh muscles...looks to me like he is pushing OFF the R foot on top/transition...absolutely necessary if you are to turn your hips and extend L side..

If you put vertical pressure on R foot, wouldn't you remain on R foot instead of getting left?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31324

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You can have pressure into the ground with the left foot too. As I have said before I feel more pressure into the left foot during the initial phrase of transition, but as I fire the left hip I feel weight more down into my right foot. Not the majority of my weight, but some. Of course, this is a counterbalance to the lateral motion. I don't want to become weightless in my right side. I have done that and just don't have anything to rotate against. Try it Stephen...you may like it.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31331

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Check out the concentration drill GIFs in Bradley's thread. Hogan certainly aint stepping into and posting his left leg. He's moving his COG behind his right leg. His legs stay "in the shot" as long as possible.

His right foot will come up with the shot, but not getting on the toes too early. This is a result of the huge momentum of the swinging club firing past him (whether you believe this is released or driven doesnt matter, its still a lot of pull from the left).
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31333

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Grady Dickens wrote:
You can have pressure into the ground with the left foot too. As I have said before I feel more pressure into the left foot during the initial phrase of transition, but as I fire the left hip I feel weight more down into my right foot. Not the majority of my weight, but some. Of course, this is a counterbalance to the lateral motion. I don't want to become weightless in my right side. I have done that and just don't have anything to rotate against. Try it Stephen...you may like it.

Your R hip will always be stuck if you do that. Hogan's R hip is "let go" as soon as he transitions. You will never square the hips in time for impact. You will get armsy.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31358

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Right hip will not get stuck if pressuring under plane....which would require solid right foot down.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31362

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Festus wrote:
Right hip will not get stuck if pressuring under plane....which would require solid right foot down.

Why do you need to pressure it down under plane if the L side is extending very well?

If the L side is not extending, yes, I understand that. In this case, you have to pressure the R hip down thru that R foot down because letting the R hip to "throw-out" will also throw-out the clubhead. But if you are extending the L side?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31365

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Why do you need to pressure it down under plane if the L side is extending very well?

These could be mutually exclusive events not necessarily working in harmony. Probably going to talk in circles for a bit, but do you see the left side extension as proactive or reactive, and where, to accomplish what.

My answer would be, only way to be set to accelerate all the way and not lose the toe in the process....or angled hinging, in another manner of speaking.

The under plane is going to change to over plane a touch post impact. :)
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Festus.
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