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From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31825

  • Lane Holt
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You hope it makes sense ?. It is absolutely correct! We are swinging in an arc around our body. The butt of the hands should pull to 1:00 . This game is played side-on. Much like Gerry's example of chopping a log lying along your left foot.
Don' t roll those hands over . You might be missing a left foot.


Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31826

  • Steve P
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Lane Holt wrote:
Gerry has used Ben Hogan as an greatest example to me of how to swing a golf club for ten years! He has done more research on Ben than most,
Now- I am not speaking for Gerry, just for me----just my opinion and some observations.

Are we asking too much from a man to describe an action that takes less than one second? He had no high speed cameras with today' s technology. He was describing a FEEL and that can be very misleading!
Ben Hogan was a very wise man. I believe he was suggesting that the hands should not be used for hitting. If you watch his slomo -- have his hands rolled over per-impact ? Has his right forearm rotated?( obviously it could not have unless the right hand forced it ) . Has he thrown / released the CLUBHEAD in his downswing?

You bet you bippy, he hasn't !,,,,, just my opinion and observations regardless of what some folks tell me I should see. As always, I could be wrong.

Lane

I must admit I have not read Gerry Hogan. I assumed his teaching was similar to De La Torre. You know what assume does.
My perspective is based on my interpretation of Mr H. I look forward to reading more that you guys have to share.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31827

  • moehogan
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Steve P wrote:
moehogan wrote:
Steve P wrote:
Lane

Do you think Gerry has much to do with Mr H?
Thanks for sharing your success with those hand ideas. I agree definitely about the pivot pull and also that golf is unnatural.
It seems to me that Mr H felt differently than Gerry about the swing though.
I submit the words from page 93 Five Lessons where Mr H emphasizes: "THE MAIN THING FOR THE AVERAGE GOLFER IS TO KEEP CONSCIOUS HAND ACTION OUT OF THE SWING"
He goes on to say it disrupts the chain action.
For myself I have tried placing my mind in my hands and letting go the results have been a combination of good shots and horrible shots.
For me putting my mind in my hands results in my hands going in a straighter line towards the target and just like Mr H said the pivot is now disconnected from my hands ie the chain
is broken. The shots are inconsistent.
My hands alone just don't get the job done.

I submit the pictures on pages 94 and 95 of Five Lessons (this is where the giant is showed)
Look at the line drawn from the left wrist to the belt buckle. IMO this is very important intention in the swing if you want things to stay in correct place and also to have maximum power available.
There's very scientific reasons this is so important. I think that yes there's a free ride down but the hands will be too far from the body if there's not this effort to pull towards the belt buckle. If the hands are left to their own devices and not subdued in transition you will never have them in place later when they are needed most IMO.
I just think encouraging focus on the hands throughout the swing is very dangerous idea.
I agree with Mr H.

I think the intent of the clubhead attacking the ball from the inside while the hands go left is sometimes a tough thing to get one's head around ... clubhead path v. hand path. If your hands follow the clubhead, they roll or flip. If your clubhead follows the hands you are OTT. Getting one correct does not guarantee the other will be.

My INTENTS are clubhead to first base, hands to third base, ball to dead center field.

mh

Great post there. I have to add a twist.
Do you think the hands have to go towards first early in order to be able to go to third when it counts?LOL
I hope that makes sense...

Hands do have to go around a bit, but much more DOWN than anything.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31828

  • Lane Holt
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Steve,

And that is a shame for you and many others. I just got very lucky and met Gerry. He felt sorry for me because I was so frustrated trying to learn this very difficult game and never improving .
Gerry doesn't deal with any other teacher . He detest theory. He is only interested in FACTS!
Gerry is a very brilliant man. He brain is wired different than most. He has figured out these difficult things for us, but their is a steep pile of theory to climb over. I don't know if anyone can.
You can say something so factual like, " the hands are the only part of the body that is attached to the handle,shaft or lever so wouldn' t you suspect it might have a huge role to play in the swing,"
And I promise someone will refute that! Our hands are our primary movers. The body will obey the commands the hands give it.
It is what it is !


Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31835

  • Martin Ayers
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Lane Holt wrote:
You hope it makes sense ?. It is absolutely correct! We are swinging in an arc around our body. The butt of the hands should pull to 1:00 . This game is played side-on. Much like Gerry's example of chopping a log lying along your left foot.
Don' t roll those hands over . You might be missing a left foot.


Lane
In a 3D world, like the one we inhabit....where is 12.00? Having talked to Gerry, I came away from the conversation with the understanding that he bases some of what he has said on the flawed premise that Ben Hogan somehow played the ball back and got ahead of it......and that hearing anything to the contrary on that point got a response akin to holding his hands over his ears and yelling "Lalallalalalalalalallala".

He did design a fantastic shaft...for that I am grateful, but I personally think that any 'pull' you introduce into a Golf swing by 'intent' is both entirely unnecessary and will always be detrimental. There is enormous 'pull' generated in a good players swing, but any pull in the direction of the swing will lead to balance issues and compensations.

I happen to agree 100% on the premise that knowing where the hands go is key...no argument with Gerry on that.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31836

  • Tapio Santala
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I think the pulling can be done so many ways that it's one of the most confusing terms in golf. For me the worst thing is to pull the butt to the ball "on plane" by shoulders and arms, but I like e lot about the idea where the body is pulling whole club and hands around me.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31837

  • Martin Ayers
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I don't like that thought at all. It's one way to do it for sure, but I much prefer to see a well aimed throw. If the top players continued to turn intentionally through the ball they would all end up in flexion at the finish......closest anyone has come to doing that was Faldo at the end of his career and it finished him.

The greats all had the club at a point near impact that was as far to the right of them 'bodily' near impact in terms of rotation and as far left as anatomy will allow at the finish. That tells me that there is more of a stabilisation of the lower body in pure rotation terms and a delivery of the shoulders arms and hands..and of course the club. Straight out of 5 lessons.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31839

  • Lane Holt
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Martin,

I expect you are aware that muscles can only " pull "! When you " throw " something are your muscles " pulling " ?
If you study a slomo of Ben Hogan you might notice his hands are over or ahead of the ball and
his CLUBHEAD is still lagging way behind. Did he throw the CLUBHEAD ?

I respectfully disagree .


Lane


Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31840

  • darryl tateishi
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Lane wrote:

The hands MUST NOT rotate counter- clockwise during the downswing .They MUST be kept right palm up. The hands are genetically designed to roll over, turn down ,release (whatever term you care to use). You must master the use of the hands if you plan to improve at this game. OK- before someone misquotes me-- the hands DO NOT supply the power!!! Only the control!

IT IS THE TURNING OF THE TORSO THAT SQUARES THE CLUBHEAD, NOT THE HANDS!!!


It is absolutely correct! We are swinging in an arc around our body. The butt of the hands should pull to 1:00 . This game is played side-on. Much like Gerry's example of chopping a log lying along your left foot.
Don' t roll those hands over . You might be missing a left foot.


Lane

I think that this video of an axe swing with a baseball bat, supports: right palm up through impact, body pulling entire package with clubhead trailing, and body turn squaring the face.

Substitute a clubhead for the axe head and change the plane, isnt that Ben Hogans swing with left forearm in line with club shaft, hips and shoulders turning through in one co ordinated effort(Pull)?

I would appreciate a more detailed explanation of what is meant by, 'this game is played side-on'


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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31844

  • Lane Holt
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Darryl,

I guess your illustration of this young Man swinging the axe is about as good an example as I can come up with. Because he is cutting at about torso height his hands are forcing his body to stand almost erect. If he were attempting to cut the base of that tree his hands would direct his body to crouch lower, bend forward at the waist and stick the rear end out to counterbalance. What is controlling the axe ?
Very similiar to the golf swing stance, huh ? The problem is --- millions of golfers are trying to " THROW " the clubhead into the back of the ball. Our hands are extremely effective at doing this manouver. A lifetime of practice.
The kid cutting the tree is swinging in a circle. Do the positions of his hands remind you of any great players ? I am not much of a baseball fan, but their hands look similiar at impact to me . Maybe someone smarter than me can come up with a much better explanation.
I don't get into all the technical stuff. I am a simple man.

Regards,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31846

  • alan
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In modern baseball,they are teaching,from the ground up,hips pul the assembly into the hitting zone,then the right arm/hand if you like,PUSHES,through,they never want the right to crossover the left,trying to hit with the WHOLE right side
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31847

  • Grady Dickens
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Phily,

Could you put your Hogan GIF where you focus on his left arm bending through impact up in this thread? It might be instructive, and I would like to get some discussion going about why it happens and what it means. You will not this was a lightbulb moment for me as I noted in that most recent swing I put up here.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31848

  • alan
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Also in baseball there is no squaring of a clubface,so in that respect not a good example in yalls arguments about what squares the face,maybe yall should start using Hockey players as example,they tend to be better golfers than baseball players
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by alan.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31850

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Actually I wolud be very curious to see some Hockey players,the puck is on the ground,the hockey stick has a face,accuracy is at premium,Baseball they just want to hit it hard,pull the inside pitch,hit the outside pitch the other way etc
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31851

  • Lane Holt
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Well-- there you go.I never played baseball. I would make one comment-- muscles can only * PULL * they can not push. This is why Gerry Hogan's research was so brilliant and is so important to golfers. He says , " why would it not be important to know what the human body is capable and not capable of doing before you intend to swing a club ! "
The human brain can only pre-program and sort out** ONE** thought at a time . The downswing takes approx. .02 seconds. You can key on your left knee and you may have the best left knee movement in history. You can ask your brain to perform any task or put you into any position you desire and you will absolutely get what you request.
However, your hands will probably go off on their own tangent and do what they are genetically designed to do . You had better spend you .02 seconds on the only part of your body that is attached to that shaft !

Good luck .

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31852

  • alan
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Well,Lane I guess its real important for you to be right,thats fine,but im telling you,because i KNOW,in baseball the want tp push with the right hand arm,is that what the muscles are doing,who knows,who cares,thats whats being taught
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31853

  • phily
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Lane, very glad to see you finally fleshing out your views - It's a welcome change, and allows deeper discussion and clarification of terms and meanings. Thank you.

so I can follow - I am wondering if we are mixing some terms (honestly don't know) and would appreciate some clarification relating to context:

Q:) muscles contract. (they can also relax but that's a bit less important to the discussion). saying muscles 'pull' or 'push' can be interpreted or misinterpreted by how the joints hinge. eg - when your tricep 'contracts', like when it takes part in throwing a ball overhand say, you are pushing against the mass/ball in your hand. using your terminology would you say the muscle was pulling, to mean contracting in order to push against the mass? (not being 'cute' here and don't want to hold anyone's feet to the fire expecting them or myself to have a Phd in body motion, just want to be able to translate.)

Q:) when you say the 'body' is pulling do you mean that our loaded turn in the backswing is being unwound while weight is being shifted? If we 'pull' that club aren't we placing too much emphasis in the arms early and not allowing the more important 'free ride down' even if we are keeping a hinge and not casting?

Q:) Regarding your emphasis on hands - don't we want to wait until we have dropped into or are coming into the slot before we begin to give full attention to the hands?


(requested by Grady, originally posted on Bradley's thread discussing left elbow bending through impact).

Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31854

  • 1lovegolf24
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Great discussion.

Push vs pull, intint vs instinct, left vs right. Feel vs real. All good debatble topics.


All I know for sure is, the muscles can only pull and to push, means away from the body. Can one be present without the other? Who knows.

I believe the axe swing and baseball swing are exactly like a golf swing.

As far as Hogan and Five Lessons, at what I personally feel and believe, as does Snead and Hogan, in their words, the left arm is the most important tool in the swing, IMO, and how I interpete and implement their words.

Snead said he starts the swing with the left side, pinkie first :) and Hogan, in Five lesson say's, I quote;

"My left arm swung right across my chest on the backswing, and was the strongest part of my down swing."

End quote.

As far as Gerry and facts, he may be right about his facts, but in application the the golf swing and axe swing, the hands never reach the saggital plane for the facts to matter. Once there is a forien object in the hands, based on grip, intentions to move the weight and protect the body, muscles, joints, etc. that become the deciding factor, IMO. , as to how the hands function.

The axe swing, is pulled by the left, but executed on the right side of the body, or saggital plane, that is why the left arm bends. it must when the left bicep experiences pressure from the left pec, since the arm is still acroos the chest, it will fold, at the elbow. Any effort to assit the club from there will be a slight ckicken wing effect, unless we roll the hand, arm and allow the release or push down from the right of the hand unit.. The push, during the DS, some like to invision, is a resistive guide, if you will, from the centriptal forces being created, by the pivot and direction of the hands and their pressures on the shaft. :) IMO. If the right side did not offer this resistance, the club would simply wrap itself around us.

Even to some extent, the pull is a reaction to the pivot,and rotation, preventing the club from being left behind.

So, in retrospect, all are correct, depending on your point of view, srtengths and weaknesses.

As Mr. Maves said, "we are pushing and we are pulling", or something to that effect, and I have seen him hit, in person, the ball, as well as Mr. Ayers B) .

Good Luck and Keep Diggin

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31855

  • Lane Holt
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Alan,

Let's keep our discussion just that- a discussion. It is more important to me put out info I have and let you decide if it has any value !
If you KNOW you are correct in your analysis, then I respect your decision. However, you might want to confirm your statement with your Doctor.

Regards,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31856

  • Lane Holt
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Mark,

Thanks for replying in such a professional manner ! I am not a expert on the brain,but maybe someone on this web can confirm that the brain can pre-program and organize and perform Two different actions in .02 seconds-- a pull and a push ?
Any brainy guys out there ?

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31857

  • phily
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Push vs pull, intint vs instinct, left vs right. Feel vs real. All good debatble topics.
not debating 'push vs pull' just want the posters definition in context with what they are describing so I can follow along.
1lovegolf24 wrote:
All I know for sure is, the muscles can only pull and to push, means away from the body. Can one be present without the other? Who knows.
you can push your finger into your belly button, you can push your finger up your nose, and you can also push cake into your mouth, I'll leave it to your imagination as to what else you can push towards your body and where.
1lovegolf24 wrote:
I believe the axe swing and baseball swing are exactly like a golf swing.
"Exactly" like ? Maybe 'very similar' physical motions used but I don't see that many pro baseball players or champion log splitters making the transition to the PGA.
1lovegolf24 wrote:
...Hogan, in Five lesson say's, I quote; "My left arm swung right across my chest on the backswing, and was the strongest part of my down swing."
What do you think Hogan meant by that, he mentions the importance of, or places emphasis on, the hands in one part of the book, the hips in another, the stance in yet another etc etc.
When he says "..the strongest part of my 'down-swing' " does he mean it's where the power for the swing comes from? What then do you mean by "the left arm is the most important tool in the swing"?
1lovegolf24 wrote:
So, in retrospect, all are correct, depending on your point of view, srtengths and weaknesses.
Thank you Mark for that all encompassing explanation I now have a simple unified key to understanding all that is around me and can live in total creamy enlightenment for the rest of my days.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31859

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Lane Holt wrote:
Mark,

Thanks for replying in such a professional manner ! I am not a expert on the brain,but maybe someone on this web can confirm that the brain can pre-program and organize and perform Two different actions in .02 seconds-- a pull and a push ?
Any brainy guys out there ?

Lane

Really Lane? that's it ? my questions were that hard?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31860

  • Lane Holt
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Philly,

I have no doubt the Great Mr. Snead did exactly as he said. I had the pleasure of walking 18 holes with just him and his caddie years ago. One thing I am absolutely sure of - his left hand and left arm ,he says, were his key, but I promise he hit it incredible distances using his torso.
Now there is profound statement, huh ?
Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31861

  • phily
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Lane Holt wrote:
Philly,

I have no doubt the Great Mr. Snead did exactly as he said. I had the pleasure of walking 18 holes with just him and his caddie years ago. One thing I am absolutely sure of - his left hand and left arm ,he says, were his key, but I promise he hit it incredible distances using his torso.
Now there is profound statement, huh ?
Lane

That's Mark's noodlings, ( i walked next to Tiger once btw, but it doesn't mean anything )

Here's what I wrote before we got 'discussion blocked' :

Lane, very glad to see you finally fleshing out your views - It's a welcome change, and allows deeper discussion and clarification of terms and meanings. Thank you.

so I can follow - I am wondering if we are mixing some terms (honestly don't know) and would appreciate some clarification relating to context:

Q:) muscles contract. (they can also relax but that's a bit less important to the discussion). saying muscles 'pull' or 'push' can be interpreted or misinterpreted by how the joints hinge. eg - when your tricep 'contracts', like when it takes part in throwing a ball overhand say, you are pushing against the mass/ball in your hand. using your terminology would you say the muscle was pulling, to mean contracting in order to push against the mass? (not being 'cute' here and don't want to hold anyone's feet to the fire expecting them or myself to have a Phd in body motion, just want to be able to translate.)

Q:) when you say the 'body' is pulling do you mean that our loaded turn in the backswing is being unwound while weight is being shifted? If we 'pull' that club aren't we placing too much emphasis in the arms early and not allowing the more important 'free ride down' even if we are keeping a hinge and not casting?

Q:) Regarding your emphasis on hands - don't we want to wait until we have dropped into or are coming into the slot before we begin to give full attention to the hands?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #31863

  • alan
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Lane Holt wrote:
Alan,

Let's keep our discussion just that- a discussion. It is more important to me put out info I have and let you decide if it has any value !
If you KNOW you are correct in your analysis, then I respect your decision. However, you might want to confirm your statement with your Doctor.

Regards,

Lane
Mr Lane,i dont think,I know they teach baseball players to feel like they are pushing through the ball with right hand arm shoulder,what muscles are doing what I DONT KNOW,,Im not correlating this to golf,you were correlating your golf theary to baseball,and they are NOT teaching that in Baseball Sir
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