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TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 6 months ago #32706

  • darryl tateishi
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If Ben Hogan will just get that R wrist bent and R palm facing the sky without doing something in his L arm/elbow/wrist/hand, Ben will be shanking the ball. If he doesn't, his distance will be reduced substantially.

SVSV

The video of Jason Dufner in the SITD , tubes of the day slo mo; illustrates that the turn squares the clubface.
He keeps right palm up well into impact and both arms are ahead of the club..

Learned on the telecast today, Jason is avid student of everything Ben Hogan. Maybe Steve Elkington can convince him to join, Mark’s thread. How cool would that be, Mark?


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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 6 months ago #32708

  • svsvincenzo
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darryl tateishi wrote:
If Ben Hogan will just get that R wrist bent and R palm facing the sky without doing something in his L arm/elbow/wrist/hand, Ben will be shanking the ball. If he doesn't, his distance will be reduced substantially.

SVSV

The video of Jason Dufner in the SITD , tubes of the day slo mo; illustrates that the turn squares the clubface.
He keeps right palm up well into impact and both arms are ahead of the club..

Learned on the telecast today, Jason is avid student of everything Ben Hogan. Maybe Steve Elkington can convince him to join, Mark’s thread. How cool would that be, Mark?



Dufner's grip is strong. He has a single wrist motion. Hogan is double wrist motion.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 6 months ago #32710

  • Steve P
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I like Jason's address position with the elbows. He's eliminating what needs to be moved. He also doesn't complicate things with plane shifts.
Anyone know was he self taught before Cook?
Really nice fundamentals on display. He's not Max power but he's sneaky long.
All fans of H ought to be fans of Jason. I love how his outer persona is equanimity personified.
Dufners cool. Its good to see that fairways and greens never goes out of style.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 6 months ago #32713

  • 1lovegolf24
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darrly,

I have heard what you have said, and to be honest, the most natural thing my right palm wants to do is face up. No problem there, especially if i try to swing the face open or flat.

Unfortunately, I cannot vouch for the body squaring the club face from that position, without some sort of action of the left hand and arm, at least for me.

As Vincenzo said, Jaso is never fully laid off for one, and his right palm never faces up, nor does the left back of the hand face up. I would guess, more of a 45 degree angle art best.

As far as the wrists, Hogan, yes, but action from the left arm must be there or else, slice, shank,no anount of body turn will square it, IMO. Even with the action of the left arm, going left is out of the question.

I will say this. Dufner's waggle is very close to Hogan's as well as almost an exact position of the right elbow, during the swing. No as much, left mostion, before the Bs is complete, as Hogan's, but hey, different wrist motion and grip.

BTW, you never know, Mr. Dufner may just happen to drop by and straighten us all out.

B)

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32721

  • darryl tateishi
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As Vincenzo said, Jason is never fully laid off for one, and his right palm never faces up, nor does the left back of the hand face up. I would guess, more of a 45 degree angle art best.

As far as the wrists, Hogan, yes, but action from the left arm must be there or else, slice, shank,no amount of body turn will square it, IMO. Even with the action of the left arm, going left is out of the question.

I will say this. Dufner's waggle is very close to Hogan's as well as almost an exact position of the right elbow, during the swing. No as much, left motion, before the Bs is complete, as Hogan's, but hey, different wrist motion and grip.

BTW, you never know, Mr. Dufner may just happen to drop by and straighten us all out.


Mark

Is Ben Hogan really laid off in the normal sense? Relative to his forearms I’d say he is in the slot. The club is eaually between his two forearms.

If both our elbows are parallel from the ground, and club tilted back at same angle as Ben Hogan, yes that is laid off.

When you swing your axe, you don’t have to think about your left wrist. You simply pull and turn.
Of course it does its job, if right hand is palm up.

I think Ben Hogan’s waggle is a preview of his slot. I don’t see that in Jasons waggle. I think the commentators talked about Jasons waggle on Sunday. Something about fighting tendency to take it inside too much?
Just my opinions

Having second thoughts about Jason joining the thread. If he does you know he isn’t going to sign on as Jason Dufner, or Dufmeister . it will be a pseudo name, with no personal info, like all the other celebrities here who remain anonymous.

What if he doesn’t agree with everyone else or comes up with something different. You know the usual reaction. I’m not sure it’s a good idea.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32724

  • 1lovegolf24
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Darryl,

I am not sure about Mr. Dufner, but he will be like everyone else here, I hope. Just digging in the Dirt.

Most of the opposition I have with Gerry's work is not his research and the facts, ie. natural tendencies, etc.. My difference of opinion is the intent of our motions and the effects it plays.when there is an implement involved.

As I have suggested, I think the swing motion is a natural one, however, once an implement is introduced, it is an unnnatural motion, ie, the golf swing, and as Hogan said, it must be developed. This I get. I think, and agree that there is a difference that we must reconcile.

Having said that, I believe, we have entered a completey different cause and effect type motion compared to that which we understand as a natural motion, such as touching our nose, scratching our left ear with our right arm, picking fruit, reaching down. All of which are, IMO, instintual, and genetically ingrained to support survival, but different from those that involve implements.

My only way to reconcile this difference, and in my most humble opinion is by intent and feel, along with observation of cause and effect, then adjustments. Having said that, I also see this as the hardest thing to teach, since trying to teach feel is almost impossible.

For example, when swinging an axe, we have an ergonomically designed shaft that determines our hand and palm position for us, in order to balance the blade and deliver it on target. Just keep swinging and eventually you'll get it right. Same with almost all tools and implements except for one. Yes, of course, the golf club. Can you imagine how low peoples scores would come down if they could use putter grips on all the clubs or any other type of grip we choose? So we are stuck with our last instinctual tool, .....feel and intent to balance the implementand deliver the face of the club square to the ball.

All thoughts of how the hands intinctually move are thrown out the window, once we are charged with the task of executing a golf swing with an unbalanced implement and deffcient handle. BTW, a throwing motion is an unnatural one, both biomechanically and intintual. That is the part of golf that vexes me the most.

So, to make a short story long, we are on our own, and probably better for it. Social learning does work, and especially with the tools we have today. The biggest one being SITD.

I know i have alot to learn, and you have been one of the true gentlemen in this thread. I appreciate that. Thanks.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin my friend.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32726

  • Martin Ayers
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it will be a pseudo name, with no personal info, like all the other celebrities here who remain anonymous.
Yes, I have always suspected that Festus was Kim Kardashian.

Lane Holt is possibly an automaton built in Gerry Hogans garage shed.....

Would be nice to out them all, but that's all I have at this time.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32727

  • darryl tateishi
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All thoughts of how the hands intinctually move are thrown out the window, once we are charged with the task of executing a golf swing with an unbalanced implement and deffcient handle.

Mark,

Try and get yourself a Nunchuk. You will know what a balanced club is like and you can set up the rest the same.

Agree the axe handle makes it 'natural' to keep right palm up, but it just takes a thought or intention as you say to make the same thing happen with the golf swing.

Thank you very much for the complement. Have to work hard to tame my dark side. its easier to train my right hand.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32728

  • Lee Comeaux
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Hey guys still see its going strong here just wanted to say hi and have a great week.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32730

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darryl,

Since I am new to the golf club , as a tool, I have, as most have, wondered what is the best out there. As far as shafts, since some have not read the Nunchuk thread, what do you believe is the advantage one would have with the nunchuk shaft, specifically with regards to a balanced shaft?

Mark , 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32731

  • darryl tateishi
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since some have not read the Nunchuk thread, what do you believe is the advantage one would have with the nunchuk shaft, specifically with regards to a balanced shaft?

Mark

Lee Comeaux just dropped by. Mr Comeaux is the man to ask about the Nunchuk. Understand he had some skype discussions with Gerry Hogan about the shaft as well.

Lets ask Mr Comeaux

PS Did you know Lee Comeaux shot 60 picturing cutting perfect divots. Wont forget his descibing that. A highlight of the dirt for me.
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by darryl tateishi. Reason: spelling
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32733

  • Lee Comeaux
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Nunchuck shaft I'll say this. For modern day technology it's as good as there is or will be. I rarely miss a fairway.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32734

  • Lane Holt
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Thanks, Lee,

I will tell Gerry about your compliment tonight . He will be thrilled and appreciative.
When you think about the the physics behind it's design it makes so much sense.
Have you tried the 370 Nunchuck Hybrid shaft ? It may be better than the driver shaft , if that's possible.
Great to hear your message !

Thanks,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32736

  • Lane Holt
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Mark,

Your thoughts are some of the best I have seen on this thread. You have nailed it very well ! Gerry says that Golf was not in the plan when God made us. It is totally against our genetic make-up. We have these arms attached to the most flexible joints in the body - the shoulders and these primary movers on the ends of our arms will rotate clockwise , counterclockwise and they do it well . Left to their own these hands will ruin your golf swing. they must be trained to perform this very unnatural action --- the golf swing.


Regards,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32737

  • Lane Holt
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Martin,

I like that ! I am ready to be outed . I am ready to discuss facts concerning human genetics and physics with you anytime. That will be fun . I am probably not on your level , so maybe I / we can learn something. Knowledge is always good !


Thanks,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32752

  • 1lovegolf24
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Mr. Holt,

What is your thoughts, based on your knowledge and that of Gerry Hogan, with regards to what Hogan said about reverse every natural instinct?
I know this has been discussed before, but I specifically interested in your opinion, if Hogan meant the "Natural" instincts, such as those we are genetically born with, tendencies and so forth, or is he talking about the first reaction, motion wise, that one gets when introduced with an unfamiliar and unnatural task.

For intance, if we ask someone to hammer a nail, with the bottom of their cleched fist, thay are experts, no problem. They will hit the nail squarely every time. Now when the hammer is introduced, how does that same natural motion of the arm and hand change,?
Same question with handball vs raquetball?
Very curious to see whether you think the natural motion remains constant in order to execute the unnnatural motion?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32755

  • Lane Holt
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Mark,

I am no Gerry Hogan , but I will give you my 2 cents worth after 10 years of learning from him. I would imagine swinging a hammer to drive in a nail is something most everyone can do. My Wife hammers nails in the wall to hang pictures. I expect many Women do also. Without any training most are pretty good at it. Is it a natural task or did we see and copy what we saw ? I am certainly not smart enough to answer that .
I have never played Handball or Raquetball so I don't have a clue. I certainly do understand that some people have far superior hand / eye coordination than others and therefore would perform these task better than others. That no one could deny !
Here is the difference in Golf as I see it - ( and Gerry taught me this ) . We hold the hammer / axe / hatchet very simliar to the golf shaft / handle , between or thumb and forefinger. In Gerry 's book he expalined what actually happens when we hammer and it is quite different from what I thought happened. The short version -- the muscles along the outside of our arms pull the right hand back into a cocked position. The muscles along the inside of the arm pulls the hand back to the front of our body-- ( and what is more natural ) . This presents a problem in golf that ruined my swing and kept me from achieving my dream. Ben Hogan said in his book and videos not to use the right thumb and forefinger. I believe Mr. Nicklaus said you don't need them also. Was Ben Hogan a smart Man ? Was Mr. Nicklaus ? I damn sure think they were !
Mr. Gerry Hogan figured all this out by his research on how the Human body operates.
Now -- millions of golfers are hammering away with the golf shaft . Throwing the clubhead. I was very good at that !

As always I could be wrong. I am willing to learn more.

Regards,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32768

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Wrong thread
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by 1lovegolf24.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32769

  • svsvincenzo
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Lane Holt wrote:
Mark,

I am no Gerry Hogan , but I will give you my 2 cents worth after 10 years of learning from him. I would imagine swinging a hammer to drive in a nail is something most everyone can do. My Wife hammers nails in the wall to hang pictures. I expect many Women do also. Without any training most are pretty good at it. Is it a natural task or did we see and copy what we saw ? I am certainly not smart enough to answer that .
I have never played Handball or Raquetball so I don't have a clue. I certainly do understand that some people have far superior hand / eye coordination than others and therefore would perform these task better than others. That no one could deny !
Here is the difference in Golf as I see it - ( and Gerry taught me this ) . We hold the hammer / axe / hatchet very simliar to the golf shaft / handle , between or thumb and forefinger. In Gerry 's book he expalined what actually happens when we hammer and it is quite different from what I thought happened. The short version -- the muscles along the outside of our arms pull the right hand back into a cocked position. The muscles along the inside of the arm pulls the hand back to the front of our body-- ( and what is more natural ) . This presents a problem in golf that ruined my swing and kept me from achieving my dream. Ben Hogan said in his book and videos not to use the right thumb and forefinger. I believe Mr. Nicklaus said you don't need them also. Was Ben Hogan a smart Man ? Was Mr. Nicklaus ? I damn sure think they were !
Mr. Gerry Hogan figured all this out by his research on how the Human body operates.
Now -- millions of golfers are hammering away with the golf shaft . Throwing the clubhead. I was very good at that !

As always I could be wrong. I am willing to learn more.

Regards,

Lane

What are you saying? That Gerry Hogan figured out what Ben Hogan sufficiently discovered and discussed in 5L about the pincer fingers (R thumb and index fingers) activating the outside muscles? So, he did research for so many years that Ben Hogan discovered and discussed any way in 5L 40+ years ago?...lol
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32771

  • Martin Ayers
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Harry Vardon's Mom knew that stuff....taught it to young Harry and he passed some stuff down to Joe Norwood among others....

I tell you what Lane...If you are interested in discussing Golf with an open mind I'm here to chat to. Let's leave the physics and Human genetics to people that actually have a clue and maybe a degree from MIT. I certainly have no wish to discuss a topic I am not an expert on....with another person that is not an expert....what a waste of time that would be.

I'm an expert in Golf ball whacking and I teach people that vary in Golf ball whacking ability.... from expert to novice. I think if you took the time to look into my concepts and theories you would find that none of it contravenes what is 'physically' possible for any age group or demographic and while challenging at times to their pre-conceived ideas of how a Golf club should be swung to hit a Golf ball......does not go against their innate capabilities as a Human Being.

Now I happen to think that quite a lot of what Gerry has said is on the money about the big picture (and there's no question his shaft design is superior...at least for the stronger players).....but when it comes to his 'ideals', and what he purports to know about Ben Hogan's motion... there are certain presumptions that I feel he has made that kind of jack up his entire concept. If you want specifics.....just name one and I'll comment on it.

The caveat that I will throw out there....
In no way do I feel I FULLY grasp Hogan...I don't think anyone alive will ever get to that point, but perhaps we can all agree that NONE of us know EVERYTHING.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32773

  • Dean Mitchell
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Martin Ayers wrote:
The caveat that I will throw out there....
In no way do I feel I FULLY grasp Hogan...I don't think anyone alive will ever get to that point, but perhaps we can all agree that NONE of us know EVERYTHING.

Amen to that.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32775

  • Lane Holt
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Martin,

Thanks for the offer, but I am not capable of discussing the swing unless I refer to Physics and Human Genetics ! It was only through a little knowledge of lever systems ( the golf shaft ) and Human Genetics that I finally understood how to hit it consistently somewhere in the area I was looking.
If you think the golf swing does not go against the innate capabilities of the human being ,then that's fine with me and I wish you and your students much success. However, I think knowledge of what the human machine can and can not do is necessary to attain a first rate swing. At least for me it was . We just see things differently. Lots of folks do . Nothing wrong with that!
Good luck,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32777

  • 1lovegolf24
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Mr. Holt,

You have mentioned the hands are hard wired to the brain, and that they control the swing motion.

My question is, if we are to apply this knowledge as fact, in our golf swing, would you consider researching of , or finding the facts about what the hands do naturally and what they should do in the swing, ( whether it be in physics or human genetics), a good place to start, before anything else?

Sorta the ultimate fundamental, or most important piece of the puzzle?

I am all for educated hands, unfortunatly , some of the education offered doesn't help, is wrong, or I am applying it improperly. Whether it be any or all of the above, how would you suggest one filter through all the info out there?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32780

  • Cy
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Martin Ayers wrote:

In no way do I feel I FULLY grasp Hogan...I don't think anyone alive will ever get to that point, but perhaps we can all agree that NONE of us know EVERYTHING.

Martin, what does it mean to "know EVERYTHING"?

My be God knows EVERYTHING! ;-)

Golf swing like walking is not a matter of KNOWLEDGE! :S
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32785

Yes finally someone talking sense, I do exactly the same. I make sure it impact I follow through low and left. I hit quality shots time after time with a slight fade. If people want to be better ball strikers then start with this....
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