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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32836

  • Tapio Santala
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As reading true measurements club head speed is totally dependent of max hand speed during the downswing. No matter if there is 15% deceleration or over 40% deceleration, the club head speed is dependent of max hand speed. Early release seems to slow down the hand speed and by that also give smaller club head speed, which fits perfectly to Drew's postings.

Those who got less deceleration seems to have all the time better smash and bigger ball speed even if the club head speed remains the same.

As increased MOI when release starts makes hands decelerate anyway, players feel they accelerate through impact and that should be the intention. That also supports the idea to swing left because then hands are following the body rotation and decelerates less.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32837

  • Grady Dickens
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Does Gerry's book actually teach a slowing down of the hands? Several pages ago Gerry's swing was posted and Phily did a gif. It was a nice swing, but I did notice that Gerry really was throwing the clubhead from the top....looked like he was trying to throw it down behind his right foot...I notices a loss of left wrist shaft angle immediately from the top. Lots of guys have hit it fine doing that, but it is not what the other Hogan did so it isn't where I want to go. What I saw I guess would be consistent with a teaching of slowing of the hands. Watching Gerry kind of reminded me a bit of Mike Austin stuff.

For me I prefer going the other way...which is to try to keep pressure on the shaft and keep my hands ahead of it as long as I can. Different strokes for different folks. Again, it would be great if Lane would do a video and demonstrate. I would like to learn this alternative way.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32838

  • 1lovegolf24
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Bradley wrote; quote,

"Educated hands are more something we use to save a bad swing when something isn't sequencing right....it isn't an imperative for every shot.....the hands hold the club and do what they should do when the body moves appropriately well. When the body doesn't move well then the hands are all you have and it is just not repeatable in timing a square face onto a round ball with the correct force for distance control."

End quote.

Bradley,

It is my belief that educated hands are ones that do not put the bodies balance at risk. Should they be required to fix a sequence that is not right, as you've mentioned, I believe it is the hands that messed up the sequence.

I have had the experience of swinging a heavy implement and many things that you believe and teach, coincide with the feels that I have. However, many things you advocate and teach, I don't feel at all. (re; swing a swing motion).

Am I right , or wrong. Neither, I hope.

@Dan,

Dan wrote, I quote;

"How is that self teaching going for you? Are you taking methods or info from the Internet? If so is this really self taught? Golf instructors exist to make people better players, at least the great ones do, and teach with their philosophies of how best to service the client. There is no doubt that there a multitude of differing opinions on this particular subject as there are with any subject and we as golf instructors/pros should respect that. I could say that because I have read a bunch of books on accounting and keep my own accounts I could do without na accountant. Smart? No. Could I develop my own kung fu without the help of a master? No.

Let's try to have an open mind about a lot of things.

Cheers

Dan ,

Thanks for the post.


As far as how I am doing being self taught, I believe I am doing great. Have I saught out information, from sources such as the opinions offered here, private consultations and advice, etc. Yes, of course. Gathering of intel is a large part of being self taught.

The difference I tend to see, when it comes to being self taught is, I am directing my training based on the intel and what I choose to filter out and what I choose to accept and implement from others, as well as my own observation and experiences.

If I want to try what Cy, Gerry, Holt, advocate or any advice from the books I read, have to offer, it is up to me. I set my schedule, I pick the way I train. I am responsible for my successes, as well as failures. No one truely does it on their own.

So, Am I really self taught, based on how much info I actually do use from those having been there , done that, or am I self taught based on how much input, and control I have? Well, that is my whole point, I believe what Mr. Maves , Elk and Mr. Burke have created is a modern or alternative way to learn, and that is, "Social learning".

It may not, and certainly is not the only or best way for all, but as for me and anyone else out there wanting to choose for themselves, I prefer it. it has givin me the results I want.

So, to make another short story long, why not let people have there say. They are not forcing anyone to accept their opinions and this is not only an open forum, it is FREE!

I believe that is about as open a mind one can have, or, at least IMO :cheer:

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32839

  • svsvincenzo
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Drew Art wrote:
No misquote Lane, just a succint summary of Gerry's belief in the book that explains the trip wire as a device to accelerate the clubhead:

Here is the full enchilada:

In the chapter "More About Levers" (p 87-88), Gerry writes: "The slower and more controlled the descent of the arms-hands unit toward impact, the more easily they can be decelerated to stop in the impact zone to allow the clubhead to catch and pass them, thus achieving maximum acceleration at the moment of impact. Conversely, the faster the arms at impact, the slower the clubhead. This ought to convince any golfer of the folloy of swiping with the arms and slashing with the hands."

Direct quote, with my emphasis added.

Do you agree with this?

That's MORAD's CF type release. Mac O'Grady discovered that years ago, and now popularized by SnT. So again, what's the discovery after 10 years of research?
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32840

  • svsvincenzo
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Double post.
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32841

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Bradley Hughes wrote:
Cy wrote:
BTW, Sam Snead never had a swing teacher/coach. ... "The best teacher you can ever have is yourself!"

Absolutely....thats why I teach my students everything they need to know to build and own their own swing with their own style and flair and hopefully allow them to become their own best teacher and eliminate myself from the process in good time.

I never had a coach until I was 26 years old....up until that point I had played in a major PGA event on my 15th birthday, won my State Amateur twice, The New Zealand Amateur, played for Australia, won in my 3rd event as a pro , been Aust PGA rookie of year , won an Australian Masters and had come 2nd and 4th on the Australian Order of Merit and played on every PGA Tour of the world.......
some can do it on there own....MOST or 99% of the golfing world cant do it themselves.....they need assistance and lots of it..... but there is no substitute for work....and if you are going to work you have to work on the right things

I don't have a clue why I was good as a youngster without instruction...but I will say this much...I didn't fall out of the womb a good golfer.
When I started playing I couldn't break 100 and had a handicap of 29....but I worked and worked.... I would hit my practice bag of 100 balls on the range...with almost every club in my bag on a given day...wedge all the way thru to woods....probably close to 1000 balls a day at times.
I even slept on the range in a tent a few nights to wake up at crack of dawn and do it all again.... on the days I wasnt beating balls I would go and play 54 holes....walking all the way to get the true golf experience.

I just find it amusing that people believe people are natural...or they can just do it..... it is work, work, work, and it comes quicker when you work on the right things...

Here are some pics of me when I was 14.....look pretty good....did I have a clue what I was doing?... I dont know?....but I worked, and I watched and I copied what the best were doing....not what they were saying...but what I saw they were doing with their swings
I found what I now try teach people early on through hard work and watching the ball flight and keeping the good stuff and eliminating the stuff that didn't work. I know the feels V real stuff and myself and Lag designed a way we can teach these feels so people wont have to guess...and can work the proper golf muscles needed to make the swing function all in the privacy of your own home....because most people dont have the time to go smack balls for hours due to life commitments.

Instruction killed what I was doing because what I got told was based on a theory from a book...not from the real life experience of playing and working it out and being able to understand every little nuance that can and does creep into the golf swing. I learned the hard way from listening to stuff that my instructor couldnt do but believed the swing was. I was never the same player again from trying to hit spots in the swing instead of making the spots look right from dynamic physical workings of the motion....vapour trail stuff where the look became a result of something else..and not a goal...which is what I did as a youngster
That is why I believe you cant teach what you can't do....I know that sounds harsh when put in those tones....but we all have a choice to make and have to decide what we teach ourselves or what someone else tries to teach us is accountable for....in any situation on any day and how well we can learn it, train it and be able to keep it without having to switch feels and thoughts daily to try find it again.


14.JPG


15.JPG

Brad,

How much did you grow taller from that time when you're 14?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32847

  • Lane Holt
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It seems you guys are much too smart for me to debate. It seems the difference in our thoughts are--
You are of the mindset that the hands provide the speed and power and the hit . If the clubhead is travelling at , let's say , 100 MPH at impact- are the hands travelling 100 MPH , or are they slowing down? Are the hands slowing down when we swing an axe ? There is certainly no intention too. When we crack a whip ?

I'll get back with you on this .

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32849

  • Drew Art
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Lane Holt wrote:
It seems you guys are much too smart for me to debate. It seems the difference in our thoughts are--
You are of the mindset that the hands provide the speed and power and the hit . If the clubhead is travelling at , let's say , 100 MPH at impact- are the hands travelling 100 MPH , or are they slowing down? Are the hands slowing down when we swing an axe ? There is certainly no intention too. When we crack a whip ?

I'll get back with you on this .

Lane

The distance travelled by the hands will be a lot less than the distance travelled by the clubhead over the same time interval, because the club head is out on the end of a stick that is anywhere from 35"-45 inches further away from the hands. So the hand speed will be a lot less than the clubhead speeds.

Whether the hands are slowing down from the time of release through impact is one question.

What causes the hands to slow down from the time of release through impact is a separate question.

Lane, don't to follow Gerry's advice to decellerate your hands to a stop in the impact zone as a means for "achieving maximum acceleration at the moment of impact." The whole premise of the trip wire analogy is a misunderstanding of cause and effect.

The thing that causes the hands to slow is the force of the shaft pressing back against the hands with the swing out of the clubhead as it releases. As the clubhead swings out, the force on the grip end presses back against and slows the hands and handle. So while the kinetic sequence is correct and energy is transferred from proximal to distal segments, the release of the distal club segment will also impose a force against the more proximal hands segment in the kinetic chain.

If you swung without a club, you could keep your hand speed all the way through, no problem.

The trip wire analogy and slowing the hands to a stop to accelerate the clubhead is bunk.

Slowing the hands to a stop does not CAUSE the maximum acceleration at the moment of impact. The hands are slowed BY the releasing clubhead.

The later you can delay that clubhead release and the more force you can continue to add to keep the hands moving through impact, despite the released clubhead that pushes back against the grip and that tries to slow your hands down, the greater the acceleration will be.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32850

  • Cy
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Drew Art wrote:
Cy, the original question to Lane was:

Do you share Gerry's belief that the slowing of the hands CAUSES the acceleration of the clubhead?

No! You're right the causation is the other way. I gave Gerry half credit! :) But if you follow the causation chain back to the start of the chain and the swing genesis, you will ALWAYS end up with the GRIP / HANDS! :whistle:
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32852

  • 1lovegolf24
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Mr. Art,

Welcome back once again. I can see you have wasted little time in finding all that is wrong with everyone elses work, but hey, I guess that gives us all an opportunity to learn something. For instance,

Drew Art wrote, Quote;

"The later you can delay that clubhead release and the more force you can continue to add to keep the hands moving through impact, despite the released clubhead that pushes back against the grip and that tries to slow your hands down, the greater the acceleration will be. "

As a matter of my own opinion and experince, I was unaware that there was a release and that we we delaying something. Change of direction and angles, but release?

Maybe you can explain exactly what this release is and when it happens in the .02 sec. of the swing.

I am also willing to learn, but not quite ready to spend my only thought during the swing, on when to release something or think about having to delay something.

I could be wrong though.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32862

  • Lane Holt
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Drew,

I think that is exactly Geery's point in that paragraph. Just stated another way. I have no quarrel with your explanation . The task of controlling that lever through the impact area is another thing, Therein lies the key . Would you agree?

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32863

  • Dave
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Drew, FWIW I think you've explained this pretty well.

However I think that when you say this:

"The later you can delay that clubhead release and the more force you can continue to add to keep the hands moving through impact, despite the released clubhead that pushes back against the grip and that tries to slow your hands down, the greater the acceleration will be. "

I don't 100% agree, because I think the notion of a "release" is actually another red herring. When that word is used it tends to refer to the point at which the hands "uncoil". Yet that is actually just a product of how you manage the club and is just the end of a kinetic chain which is triggered when the club drops below the hands and you lose the ability to actively control it.

So its more complex IMO and if you release the club from the start, as Martin suggests for example (though hes not alone in that) then you lengthen that chain and you manage it differently. Your statement is kind of reminsicent of TGM flying wedge or an ABS acceleration/drive concept, even if you dont mean that, and IMO thats not the best way to generate CH speed.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32867

  • Grady Dickens
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Dave,

I have to ask you to explain yourself on ABS and drive. I have never used that term and I don't recall Bradley doing so either. I just don't think you understand ABS, which is understandable since you have not taken the program or been exposed to John's guidance.

I do agree ABS is not a method that will win you a long drive contest. It will just get you lots of fairways and greens.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32868

  • Dave
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Grady, not meant as a criticism of the method, and I maybe rushed the post. Drew's post also is open to interpretation.

What I meant is that the way to maximise the potential speed of the body/club machine is to release the club. Its that simple IMO. As far as I understand ABS, it does not advocate doing that.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32870

  • Bradley Hughes
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When we look at the equation that .... Force = Mass X Acceleration then it makes things much simpler to understand
Everyone is too hell bent on velocity & speed and want to use lighter equipment to gain speed...but forfeiting control in the process

If you use something that has more mass or weight and then continually attempt and intend to accelerate it without reaching a maxed out velocity speed that then causes slow down....then you get the force...you can move something heavuier a little slower and still create as much or more force as something lighter that is moving faster

I think anyone who has even attempted drill 1 and been ok'd on it and their performance of the drill will see that YES in fact the clubhead can be sped up/accelerated into impact.....because it uses the rotational forces of forearm and wrist work to move the club a great distance
I doubt anyone on Drill 1 has ever been measured as to what speeds they can create but at a guess I am saying I can move the clubhead from zero to 50-60mph (estimate) with one hand and probably/definitely greater than that with both hands...all within the space of my hands moving a grand total of maybe 12 inches in distance

putting that into work in the swing is different for most because they are steep downward slappers with little rotational forces in their motion.....but it is not hard once you learn the pieces and can put them together....just takes patience and dedication to the task....as Grady has now learned to do since starting module 6
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Bradley Hughes.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32871

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F=MA is only one way to look at the swing, its a philosophy not a fact. Because...

The fact is that the club is on the ball for a few thousandths of a second, so any acceleration will not translate into anything more than fractionally increased CH speed. And CH speed determines distance (combined with a sweetspot strike, but that applies to all methods).

The philosophy with focusing on acceleration, including post-impact, may be to generate increased speed through the swing and hence greater CH speed at impact. I'm OK with that.

But it's inaccurate to suggest that acceleration or "force" will lead to greater speed/distance.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32874

  • Bradley Hughes
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Hogan stated it himself on page 106 of his Five Fundamentals/ Modern Fundamentals Book

The clubhead reaches it's maximum speed at a point after impact

That is 'acceleration' intent.................doesnt matter if it isn't true...it is the intent and knowing that acceleration gives more control and still gives optimal distance without timing elements being so hard to control

Keeping acceleration as a goal and not velocity allows the face to be controlled later and farther down the path.

It is like slinging a rock on a string.........
you can whirl it around as fast as you can and then let it go
OR
you can whirl it around and accelerate it as you let it go

Which one do you have more control over at release point?....... pretty obvious really

The velocity one may travel farther but it is also going to go off line many more times because you have to time the release.....just like you would have to time the clubface to get square
The acceleration one will be more consistent in direction and trajectory as it leaves the hand and will also have desirable and more consistent distance.........

Golf is not just about power it is of distance and control to specific targets.......

If I weighed 150 pounds and I ran into you at 15 mph I may knock you over.....and if I weighed 175 pounds and ran into you at 12mph I will knock you over....
Mass with acceleration wins in all regards....Moe knew, Knudson knew it, Hogan knew it
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Bradley Hughes.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32875

  • Dave
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Yes, the CH may reach its maximum speed just after impact, but that can also be achieved with acceleration all the way through if you wish.

I dont agree with your rock/string analogy, if you try to accelerate as you release it, you'll likely be less accurate than if your intent is to release at an aiming point on the arc.

And running into someone aint a good analogy for the golf swing, which is a lever system with several pivot points.

Mass IS important ie heavier clubs can generate more speed. Acceleration isnt because of the short duration of the swing OR at least its less important than overall speed.

Of course golf is about control and accuracy, absolutely. But these can still be achieved with maximimising the role of the freely-swung club, which is the greatest source of speed (power) in the swing. Moe, Hogan certainly knew this too.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32876

  • Bradley Hughes
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Well good luck..... velocity induced swings are the rage with the poor golfer in every corner of the globe.
If you want the need to give up clubface control by swinging it and trying to time it on the ball then that is your and anyone's perogative.......alas very few of the great ball strikers performed that act.....
You dont hit this point in the swing without acceleration.....not possible.....cos velocity will put you where the bottom right guy is as he runs out of puff quite soon in the downswing and forfeits his clubface control along the way also


p5.JPG
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32877

  • Brad Owen
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Dave wrote:
Mass IS important ie heavier clubs can generate more speed.

No, heavier clubs produce more force, it's impossible to swing a heavy club faster than a light club - its just pure physics. I can swing a headless shaft at nearly 170mph, if you could make a club that weighed the same as just a golf shaft i'm betting the ball would go nowhere even with 170mph CH speed.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32878

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Yes, you're right Brad. Need to stop rush-replying...

MOMENTUM is speed x mass. Hence more momentum with heavier clubs.

@Bradley: "You dont hit this point in the swing without acceleration.....not possible.....cos velocity will put you where the bottom right guy is as he runs out of puff quite soon in the downswing and forfeits his clubface control along the way also"

What you say I get from a golf point of view... but of course there's acceleration in ALL swings even poor players. The club starts at 0mph and hits 100mph or whatever at some stage in the swing. Cant do that without acceleration.

But that doesnt mean that you have to pour on acceleration all through the swing. This is what I feel you're not taking into account. JMO.

In fact your logic is questionable because you say that you get more control by accelerating. Yet you say that more speed leads to less control. That doesn't add up logically.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32879

  • Dean Mitchell
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More speed doesn't equal less control, Dave. Brad isn't saying that. He's saying that if the goal is speed above all else and the method of achieving that is to throw the hands and arms at the ball and disconnect from the pivot then control has been surrendered for speed.

Gaining speed and velocity through a pivot driven action doesn't have to mean less distance, but it does take hard work.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32881

  • Bradley Hughes
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Acceleration is VERY different to velocity......
acceleration is going from 20-30-40-50-60 or increasing our speed and momentum until we reach our finish point
velocity is getting to 60 as quickly as we can and then hoping for dear life we can maintain and hold on.. but for most the 60 happens halfway down and then everything is slowing down.....and we sense it!!!!! so then we try and gain speed again and the only thing we have left to try move fast is the arms and hands as the body once stopped is not going to get going again....it spells disaster for control trying to move something fast again that has already maxxed out and slowed down

We wouldnt drive a car 150mph into a bend and then just slow down and try steer it through and around the bend cos they would have the yellow flags out and be mopping us off the tar

We would approach with caution (transition) then build it up and then accelerate out of the bend

The golf swing has bends in it...it is not up and down and a straight shot...... better to accelerate through the bends for better control....just like we would in a car
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32882

  • Bradley Hughes
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Dean Mitchell wrote:
Gaining speed and velocity through a pivot driven action doesn't have to mean less distance, but it does take hard work.

exactly......the body is a huge power source ..take away Hogans arms and hands.....he still has plenty going on.


armlesshogan.JPG
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Bradley Hughes.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 5 months ago #32883

  • Dave
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OMG guys. Anyone not connected to golf would just read this and say WTF??? Your'e wanting acceleration, but not speed. You can accelerate through the corners, but good luck if you use actual speed. :laugh: We're getting so confused in this golf world of ours its ridiculous.

Now I know you guys know golf and you know the swing, so you have my respect. I'd just steer clear of the faux-physics explanations though.

Please, I'll say it for about the 14th time - I'm not suggesting throwing the arms out and away, DTL flipping, all the cliches that get used whenever anyone challenges the received wisdom of pivot-driving the swing. What I'm suggesting is that I believe you can use the forces that are available in the swing as a result of gravity to your advantage. Thats all. If gravity didnt exist you guys would be all over it.

And BTW, these pictures of Hogan make my point also - he understood how to balance the forces at work. How to stay back while the club swung forward; how to balance left while the club swung behind him.
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