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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33661

  • Tapio Santala
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moehogan wrote:
Drew Art wrote:
The combination of COG shift, left side expansion, right hand late thrust with force across the shaft (LATE), weaker left hand grip, and the anatomical limit in the left arm allows for the conditions of the clubface at impact to produce the Hogan fade. Notice by impact the hips are already open... they are EVEN open in relation to the NEW saggital plane line - the line established by the inside of his left foot.

It all must work together.

Drew,

Sounds like an awful lot to conceive of and implement in one day. IMO, Snead's guess is still more logical.

mh

Snead knew it perfectly because he had made the same before and recognized it because of that.

And no one will ever see it from videos of that era. Too small and quick movement for camera or naked eye and even hard to see with 300fps videos. One just needs to understand it and find that action... and first he needs to have same problem that those great players had.

Some day we will agree (??? :)) about the change and we can really start to discuss how he made that. For me it seems all the time that so many are talking about Hogans swing movements and not about that small change he made and how. But if someone really wants to understand it, put lot of attention to the hand path, hand speed, pressure point at the grip and right elbow. First three of them are strongly connected together and the last one is balancing move and guiding the force to right direction. It's so much against all our instincts that it never comes to our mind even to try if someone don't ask you to do it. And not even then. I have seen people trying to do it 2 years and then find it in 3 minutes when they really believe in that. And it all comes so logical even after a while.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33663

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moehogan wrote:
Drew Art wrote:
The combination of COG shift, left side expansion, right hand late thrust with force across the shaft (LATE), weaker left hand grip, and the anatomical limit in the left arm allows for the conditions of the clubface at impact to produce the Hogan fade. Notice by impact the hips are already open... they are EVEN open in relation to the NEW saggital plane line - the line established by the inside of his left foot.

It all must work together.

Drew,

Sounds like an awful lot to conceive of and implement in one day. IMO, Snead's guess is still more logical.

mh

Snead and sarazen were both right in their guesses, but neither they nor Hogan really divulged publicly one element of how he accomplished what they all said.

Most of the elements in my description, hogan was already doing in his swing by September 1947... So the incremental changes were certainly doable in one day. He was among the top players on tour already at that point.

Larry will make it very, very simple. He does not like complicated, and has worked hard to simplify. He does not tolerate complicated, and my description is speaking more about the conditions to produce the Hogan fade shot than the HOW TO. In fact, Larry teaches to trust your Go To Shot, whether it is a slight draw or slight fade.

Sorry i had to obfuscate the simplicity of it.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33664

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Muscles can ONLY PULL is a bit wrong ??? WHAT ?????



**** Bones do what muscles tell them to do.***

Martin-- please ask your doctor or orthopedic friend. Go on the internet and type in -******CAN MUSCLES PUSH OR PULL***** ? Thanks for your reply.

Regards,

Lane

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33670

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Drew Art wrote:
moehogan wrote:
Drew Art wrote:
The combination of COG shift, left side expansion, right hand late thrust with force across the shaft (LATE), weaker left hand grip, and the anatomical limit in the left arm allows for the conditions of the clubface at impact to produce the Hogan fade. Notice by impact the hips are already open... they are EVEN open in relation to the NEW saggital plane line - the line established by the inside of his left foot.

It all must work together.

Drew,
,
Sounds like an awful lot to conceive of and implement in one day. IMO, Snead's guess is still more logical.

mh

Snead and sarazen were both right in their guesses, but neither they nor Hogan really divulged publicly one element of how he accomplished what they all said.

Most of the elements in my description, hogan was already doing in his swing by September 1947... So the incremental changes were certainly doable in one day. He was among the top players on tour already at that point.

Drew,

Agree with everything you have said here. Maybe at this point it is more academic, but IMO the LAST component to be added was the right hand action. Mr. H worked on getting the left arm correct for a year. The right hand is what bit him when the heat was on ... the effect of adrenaline on his dominant hand.

Right hand late across the shaft could be very similiar to what I have described as "under". Would love to hear you expound on this component.

Cheers,

mh
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by moehogan.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33673

  • 1lovegolf24
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Martin, Drew, Tapio,


Muscles only pull. They can pull in extention or they can pull in flexion. Even when we go to the bathroom, their is pull, or contraction for evacuation. Furthermore, bones are pulled by the muscles to create angles between them that determines if it is either flexion or extention. We all know that, it's in the book.

Now we can look at pull vs push in the sense or context of describing direction. Pull, being toward us, or push, being away from us.

What I don't get is, either way we look at it, use it, describe it, define it, how does that make us swing better?

So much time here at this thread is spent on semantics, splitting hairs, etc. we still have not defined Hogan's ultimate intent, or cause to all the effects we seem to want to argue about , explain.

It is time to get down to the nitty gritty, and make all of our time and expertice spent here account for something!

No more agendas, pandering for students, selling books, preaching methods and ideology, explaining crapola , the how to's and spuing endless drabble :angry:

it is time to reveal the true secret or ultimte cause, thought, feel, etc. that makes the swing work, or in Hogan's case, identify the one thing that enlightened him to greatness and ability to master the swing and it's ball flight.

Without this one thing, the rest of it all doesn't matter.

Any takers?

If not,

Good Luck and Keep Diggin.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33676

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Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by ryan.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33677

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Martin, Drew, Tapio,
Muscles only pull. They can pull in extention or they can pull in flexion. Even when we go to the bathroom, their is pull, or contraction for evacuation. Furthermore, bones are pulled by the muscles to create angles between them that determines if it is either flexion or extention. We all know that, it's in the book.
Now we can look at pull vs push in the sense or context of describing direction. Pull, being toward us, or push, being away from us.
What I don't get is, either way we look at it, use it, describe it, define it, how does that make us swing better?
So much time here at this thread is spent on semantics, splitting hairs, etc. we still have not defined Hogan's ultimate intent, or cause to all the effects we seem to want to argue about , explain. blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah , blah, blah, blah, blah.

Muscles can 'contract' via chemical reaction or they can just relax. That's it.

Using the words push or pull with regards to how a muscle 'works' is the problem here.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33678

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Without this one thing, the rest of it all doesn't matter.

Any takers?

Revealed FOR THE FIRST TIME ON THE INTERNATIONAL AMAZING INTERNET.... RIGHT HERE in Mark's AMAZING, INFINITE PENULTIMATE, ULTIMATUM
THE HOGAN SECRET OF
AXE-SWINGIN' FROM BIRTH, NATURAL MOTION!

THE KEEP ON DIGGIN', MUSCLE-PULLIN'
1lovegolf24x7x365 (and 366 in leap years)
EPIC THREAD REVEALS ALL!!

EXTRA-EXTRA, FORT WORTH NEWS PAPER BOY
REVEALS SECRET,.
RIGHT HERE IN POST #33678

STEP RIGHT UP, THE EPIC, AMAZING, NATURAL, ULTIIMATE SECRET SPOILER OF ALL TIME



Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33679

  • Drew Art
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moehogan wrote:

Right hand late across the shaft could be very similiar to what I have described as "under". Would love to hear you expound on this component.

Cheers,

mh

Mike,

I have really enjoyed reading your take on Hogan's secret.

Perhaps someday we can have a drink and hit some range balls some time. I think that would be great fun.

What part of the world are you in?

Drew
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33681

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Drew Art wrote:
moehogan wrote:

Right hand late across the shaft could be very similiar to what I have described as "under". Would love to hear you expound on this component.

Cheers,

mh

Mike,

I have really enjoyed reading your take on Hogan's secret.

Perhaps someday we can have a drink and hit some range balls some time. I think that would be great fun.

What part of the world are you in?

Drew

Drew,

That does sound like great fun. I'm in Cincy, but travel the Eastern U.S. regularly for work. I will let you know the next time that I am in your neck of the woods and maybe we can arrange something.

Mike
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33687

  • Martin Ayers
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Martin, Drew, Tapio,


Muscles only pull. They can pull in extention or they can pull in flexion. Even when we go to the bathroom, their is pull, or contraction for evacuation. Furthermore, bones are pulled by the muscles to create angles between them that determines if it is either flexion or extention. We all know that, it's in the book.

Now we can look at pull vs push in the sense or context of describing direction. Pull, being toward us, or push, being away from us.

What I don't get is, either way we look at it, use it, describe it, define it, how does that make us swing better?

So much time here at this thread is spent on semantics, splitting hairs, etc. we still have not defined Hogan's ultimate intent, or cause to all the effects we seem to want to argue about , explain.

It is time to get down to the nitty gritty, and make all of our time and expertice spent here account for something!

No more agendas, pandering for students, selling books, preaching methods and ideology, explaining crapola , the how to's and spuing endless drabble :angry:

it is time to reveal the true secret or ultimte cause, thought, feel, etc. that makes the swing work, or in Hogan's case, identify the one thing that enlightened him to greatness and ability to master the swing and it's ball flight.

Without this one thing, the rest of it all doesn't matter.

Any takers?

If not,

Good Luck and Keep Diggin.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Mark you are the KING of saying the least in the most amount of words.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33688

  • Martin Ayers
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Also...just a quick note...no one here knows or will know what Hogan's secret was.
Plenty of folks here though that have learned some good stuff for themselves and others from the search for it.

My head is still spinning with incredulity at Marks venting....just wow, lmfao. Did you really just call EVERYONE out?

Deranged.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33691

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it is time to reveal the true secret or ultimte cause, thought, feel, etc. that makes the swing work, or in Hogan's case, identify the one thing that enlightened him to greatness and ability to master the swing and it's ball flight.

Mark,

Its now over 60 years since Ben Hogan discovered something to prevent him from hitting it left: PULLS and HOOKs and PULL HOOKS.

In the past week we have seen some of the top professional golfers, TOP TEN in the world; take themselves out of contention to win, due to PULLS and HOOKS and PULL HOOKS. If the best in the world with the best teachers and trainers in the world are still hitting if LEFT, under the gun, they obviously haven’t figured out Ben Hogans secret.

Forget greatness and master of the swing. All any of us need to know, including the best in the world is how NOT to hit it LEFT.

Did you hear what Webb Simpson said after winning. He finished but couldn’t feel his arms or legs down the stretch. Suggest to you, that if ‘fight or flight’ causes that kind of physiological change in our bodies, better know how to control that which is going to propel the ball LEFT,

If Webb could not feel his arms and legs, must be something else that controls don’t you think?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33694

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;) ;)Martin Ayers wrote:
Also...just a quick note...no one here knows or will know what Hogan's secret was.
Plenty of folks here though that have learned some good stuff for themselves and others from the search for it.

My head is still spinning with incredulity at Marks venting....just wow, lmfao. Did you really just call EVERYONE out?

Deranged.


Martin,

You know that's not true, I think plenty of people know Hogan's real secret, IMO. And yes, I did.

Can one find it on their own? Yes I believe they can.

It just gets old when people know his secret, keep it to themselves, and sell and teach, the effects, rather than the cause. :(

People are free to do as they please and certainly this thread is no different. I just thought it would be nice if someone knows the secret, come out with it, :cheer:

If you don't know, that's fine, their are many other ways to swing a golf club that will suffice.

As for me, I'll keep chopping away at it. ;) The Secret, of course.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33696

  • Drew Art
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Hogan's secret is not going to help most golfers anyway. If you have an over the top and back across the ball cut or slice, forget it.

Most people have the opposite problem Hogan had anyway, so it's not for them.

Hogan sacrificed yardage for shot shape and trajectory. Most people are looking for more and more yards, and would love to hit a "going draw" as Johnny Miller is fond of saying... that hook is just not their miss.

What's your shot shape, Mark? Is it an over the top outiside in cut/slice? Got video?
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33697

  • Martin Ayers
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Hogan hit it left and cost himself a US Open at the same venue....7 years or so after conceiving his secret....

Reality has left the building.....

"It just gets old when people know his secret, keep it to themselves, and sell and teach, the effects, rather than the cause."

You are kidding right? This is such a blanket statement that you have absolutely no business making in my mind (there are many people that have contributed things in this thread to the best of their ability to communicate the cause AND effect). Who TF are you to tell people what they should do? Like I said DERANGED!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33698

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Drew Art wrote:
Hogan's secret is not going to help most golfers anyway. If you have an over the top and back across the ball cut or slice, forget it.

Most people have the opposite problem Hogan had anyway, so it's not for them.

Hogan sacrificed yardage for shot shape and trajectory. Most people are looking for more and more yards, and would love to hit a "going draw" as Johnny Miller is fond of saying... that hook is just not their miss.

What's your shot shape, Mark? Is it an over the top outiside in cut/slice? Got video?

Drew,

I believe what you are saying, however, IMO, Hogan's real secret, as I believe you have mentioned, correct me if I am wrong, was never about curing his hook.

You are also correct about my past golf swing, it's obvious in my profile swing. I still have the same swing motion, but have changed the things that reallly control the golf swing.

Also, FYI, I have never hooked the ball. Maybe a few pulls, but never a hook.

That is why I searched for Hogan's secret. His secret is the understanding of how to hook, draw, pull, hit it straight and all the way to a slice if he wanted, with distance control, but I think you know all this already. Again, please correct me if I am wrong

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33700

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Hogan hit it left and cost himself a US Open at the same venue....7 years or so after conceiving his secret....



PGA Tour 64 (4th all time)
Best results in Major Championships
(Wins: 9) Masters Tournament Won: 1951, 1953 U.S. Open Won: 1948, 1950, 1951, 1953 The Open Championship Won: 1953 PGA Championship Won: 1946, 1948 Achievements and awards World Golf Hall of Fame 1974 (member page)

PGA Tour
leading money winner 1940, 1941, 1942, 1946, 1948
PGA Player of the Year 1948, 1950, 1951, 1953
Vardon Trophy 1940, 1941, 1948 Associated Press
Male Athlete of the Year 1953

Reality has left the building.....
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33701

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enough.

I've let things slide around here for quite a while but it's time for us to reveal ourselves & for me to step in.
I fully expect all of you to hold to our special agreement, made through PM's, to keep Hogans secret from Mark. He is not ready.

I won't say it again. You know the consequences.

Phil / Level 5
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33702

  • Drew Art
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10 months, 2 weeks, 261 pages later and Mark reveals that he has no idea what the Hogan Secret was even PURPORTED to be, having either not read, or not comprehended the Life Magazine piece that started it all.

Well here it is Mark, go to page 60:

books.google.com/books?id=ylYEAAAAMBAJ&p...#v=onepage&q&f=false


Really, the whole thing was a big marketing effort to sell Life Magazines at the height of the Second Red Scare (when secrets were all the rage), and for which Hogan was reported to have been paid a handsome $10K, a good bit of coin back then.

But, there is has always been some truth in it, and something missing from it. Back in January 1948, Hogan said to the LA TImes that he discovered something back home at Colonial in September 1947, and the facts clearly show that from then onward he went on a winning tear and had his best years ever after that point.

The quick fix he made in September 1947 helped him, but it did not cure his human beingness, an affliction that prevented him from reaching MAN-GOD status which remained through his lifetime.

Fortunately, with the birth of the GLOBAL INTERNET, thanks to the single-handed efforts of Al Gore, Ben Hogan ascended from his righteous place in history to assume the mantel of REVERED GOLFING GOD WHO NEVER EVER, EVER missed LEFT...

[ahem ... or came up short with a pitching wedge into a pond to cost himself annother U.S. Open]

For real: Navajo codetalkers could not decrypt the logic in here.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33703

  • Martin Ayers
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yep '55 US Open is not on that list in part to Hogan MISSING IT LEFT on 18 AFTER discovering his secret to not missing it left.....so not sure how that list is germane to the point.....
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33704

  • Doug Burke
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lmfao and calling Mark deranged...very poor behavior, very poor, Martin. no excuse for that..I hope Maves steps in to return this thread to treating others with dignity and respect.Martin Ayers wrote:
Also...just a quick note...no one here knows or will know what Hogan's secret was.
Plenty of folks here though that have learned some good stuff for themselves and others from the search for it.

My head is still spinning with incredulity at Marks venting....just wow, lmfao. Did you really just call EVERYONE out?

Deranged.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33706

  • phily
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i dunno Rock,

I think Martin has a pretty air tight case.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33707

  • Bradley Hughes
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Here is the Hogan swing from the 30's....not sure exact year.....not hard to see the differences that he ended up invoking that helped get rid of his hook (most of the time!!)....and also allowed him better trajectory and distance control



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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 3 months ago #33708

  • Martin Ayers
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Disordered....disarranged...deranged. I stand by the adjective to describe his recent postings.... which now that I think about it are pretty consistent with most of the offerings.

How else to describe rantings that are AGAINST everything yet devoid of being FOR anything.

The only fence he isn't sitting on is the one on his island.....a completely deserted island...IHO
wrap your head around that......


edit...on the subject of dignity and respect....I would not have said a thing if I didn't feel that his post was disrespectful to EVERYONE that has made an effort to post in this loooooong thread.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Martin Ayers.
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