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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33809

  • Martin Ayers
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phily wrote:
Martin Ayers wrote:
Good friend of mine, a pro in Boston , Michael Powers has some excellent ideas on pre-shot conditioning...
He makes the point that all good players SEE the target with their eyes, FELL the club in their hands and FEEL the ground with their feet....and they do ALL THREE AT THE SAME TIME....

The three things are interconnected on every shot....the club in the hands is a crucial piece I agree, but pointless without our relationship to the ball on the ground and the target distant.
We prepare those with the knowledge of what's coming and if you don't know what is coming by way of the whole motion.... you're stumbling around in that dark room feeling with your hands and to ascribe the whole thing to that is basically a trap that most fall into.
sonofagun ... been thinking about that recently, how we stand sideways to the target hundreds of feet away and command the ball there with only trust. But I only thought it through as far as using two targets overlaid - one out on the course and the other target the memory of our swing. There is that point where we commit the two (or more) together. Interesting post Martin.

Try this Phily.....you already know how to do it....waggle, walk and look....you will know where the face is, the ball on the ground is , the target is and where you are in relation to all of it and the shot you want to play. You don't have to think AT ALL about this. The doing of this is enough.

When you get it going please take note of how everything is counterbalancing ALL the time...it's instinctive.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33810

  • Drew Art
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Do the hands slow? Yes, they slow. What is the cause? The acceleration of the club... basically, as the club swings out, the handle exerts an opposite torque on the hands, slowing them down.

Far more important than any of this to good golf though, is how you use the TORSO, SHOULDERS, ARMS & HANDS to control the angle of attack, depth and location of strike, AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL FOR DIRECTIONAL CONTROL ==> the axial rotation of the shaft, which translates in to the face direction.

Face direction at impact is a the largest factor that determines where the ball is going, other factors being the angle of attack, and path of the clubhead.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33811

  • darryl tateishi
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If they do stop I contend its not a deliberate act by the golfer.

jessev,

Agree happens much to fast (max 0.2 second for entire downswing, at less than 0.1 second prior to impact, hands have more decel than generated in downswing)

Hard to believe and impossible to control, CONSCIOUSLY.
Thats what Lane has been getting at and no ones seems to get. If someone accepts what is happening, our body/brain can act on that intention.

Now we know about proprioception, we can understand, our body /brain can do amazing things we have no conscious awareness of. Besides its simply a lever acting exactly as a lever is supposed to.

So much misconception thinking the swing is a pendulum, of course no one can grasp the real physics.

Impact of ball and club face is 0.0008 second.
We remain upright because our heels react to movement in 0.0006 second. (along with eyes and inner ear)

Mind bogling time frames.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33812

  • JesseV
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I thought this thread was about Ben Hogan's ultimate secret, not Gerry Hogan's secret. nothing for me to see here, I shall move on.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33813

  • Bill B
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So much time here at this thread is spent on semantics, splitting hairs, etc. we still have not defined Hogan's ultimate intent, or cause to all the effects we seem to want to argue about , explain.

It is time to get down to the nitty gritty, and make all of our time and expertice spent here account for something!

No more agendas, pandering for students, selling books, preaching methods and ideology, explaining crapola , the how to's and spuing endless drabble

it is time to reveal the true secret or ultimte cause, thought, feel, etc. that makes the swing work, or in Hogan's case, identify the one thing that enlightened him to greatness and ability to master the swing and it's ball flight.

Without this one thing, the rest of it all doesn't matter

How does one read this and answer in a serious manner.

Let start with this video
secretinthedirt.com/index.php/the-vault/...ben-hogan-episode-27

Around 43 second mark Elk ask if the Pro at that time tried out Hogan's secret of the left thumb and Mr Burke said Hogan had a secret every week. In Mr Burke's book he said Hogan had 500 secrets
Heck there are over 60 Hogan video's here (free btw) Mr Burke probally has as much knowledge of Mr Hogan
as anyone alive and he doesn't know the "One Thing"

On this Thread great instructors Like Bradley, Martin, John Erickson ( There is A Hogan Thread on Johns site and I think there were 25 possible secret ideas) just to name a few that have given there opinion of Hogan's secret . They have posted pictures, video's to explain their theories not to pander for students. They come here because they respect Elk, Mike and Mr Burke and have spent a life time trying to learn how to make the ball behave and then take that knowledge and teach students. Your comment are offensive to me I can only imagine how they feel.

Heck Drew Art was nice enough to share information on Larry Mowry who met Ben Hogan and was mentored by Tommy Bolt. He stated that the information he received from a video lesson was extremely helpful in Drew's quest to learn the essentials of Hogan. Certainly worth getting a lesson from if you wanted to find Hogan.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for golf but IMO the post above is makes me wonder if you really are serious about this subject or just just trying to keep thread going for S*** & giggles
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33815

  • Martin Ayers
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Hands up who said it was a pendulum....HANDS UP DEMMIT!!!!!!!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33816

  • phily
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Martin Ayers wrote:
Try this Phily.....you already know how to do it....waggle, walk and look....you will know where the face is, the ball on the ground is , the target is and where you are in relation to all of it and the shot you want to play. You don't have to think AT ALL about this. The doing of this is enough.
When you get it going please take note of how everything is counterbalancing ALL the time...it's instinctive.
That's a great way to sum it up Martin.

As soon as I read that I also thought of how this similarly works in putting.
you already know where the face is in relation to your body/shoulders, and because of this you can set up the whole package while observing the intended line. It all has to become 'one thing'.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33817

  • Martin Ayers
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phily wrote:
Martin Ayers wrote:
Try this Phily.....you already know how to do it....waggle, walk and look....you will know where the face is, the ball on the ground is , the target is and where you are in relation to all of it and the shot you want to play. You don't have to think AT ALL about this. The doing of this is enough.
When you get it going please take note of how everything is counterbalancing ALL the time...it's instinctive.
That's a great way to sum it up Martin.

As soon as I read that I also thought of how this similarly works in putting.
you already know where the face is in relation to your body/shoulders, and because of this you can set up the whole package while observing the intended line. It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.

Now that is REALLY summing it up..../thread for me. Lots of good stuff put forth by everyone here....if you can make it your own and it becomes ONE thing...then you have 'your' secret.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33818

  • Gary Branson
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oops - sorry, wrong forum
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Gary Branson.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33819

  • Dave
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Interesting discussion of the physics.

The one thing that interests me is - I dont think its possible to say, empirically, what causes the speed in the downswing. To some degree the hands must be carried forward by the swing of the club. But how much and how can you separate those?

This is kind of like a kid skateboarding, using one foot to push. He is not providing all of the speed of the skateboard all of the time. Neither is the skateboard itself though. Its a team effort.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33823

  • Drew Art
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Martin Ayers wrote:

What Gerry says here is obviously false...... BUT there lies a grain of wisdom in there that can be utilised. This goes back to my earlier point to our disarranged thread starter......
There has been a lot of good things posted in this thread by various folks that when viewed in the correct context can make sense of why Gerry Hogan would write that.....

Tapio for example brought up the knowledge (from his 4D graphs) that the hands and club are not traveling in the same direction at impact.......Which I also alluded to in various posts...I believe Festus , Bradley and others also alluded to this 'different' direction or hand path as it relates to the club. We may not all agree on everything but I believe most are in agreement that they are intact traveling in different directions. Most people who can 'do' it know this at least instinctively and so do not try to 'stop' the arms and hands.

If you view it from a certain perspective it's easy to mistake the hands slowing to a stop......

I would say the wisdom in there is that the SLOWER THE ARMS AND HANDS DESCEND AND THE MORE CONTROLLED THAT IS...........gives us the MOST tangential divergence at delivery (because the mass of the club gets sent out to the ball LATER)...which at it's most controlled gives us a pressured/stressed weapon to strike with for maximum force and control....while at the same time offers the 'potential' should you choose to use it of 'whip cracking' like speed.

Exactly.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33828

  • Festus
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Drew wrote:

Exactly.

Festus response:

Ditto!

Festus- level 17 :laugh:
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33830

  • Lane Holt
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Steve P.

Good point!!!!!! You do swing the WHOLE club !!! Your torso pulls the entire lever system down and around you--- just as you would swinging an axe . If the wrist are a FREE SWINGING HINGES I promise
the CLUBHEAD will be get there.

Great lesson to learn. We should apply Physics to the golf swing, shouldn't we?

Thanks,

Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33831

  • Grady Dickens
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Martin wrote:


I would say the wisdom in there is that the SLOWER THE ARMS AND HANDS DESCEND AND THE MORE CONTROLLED THAT IS...........gives us the MOST tangential divergence at delivery (because the mass of the club gets sent out to the ball LATER)...which at it's most controlled gives us a pressured/stressed weapon to strike with for maximum force and control....while at the same time offers the 'potential' should you choose to use it of 'whip cracking' like speed.

@Martin,

Great post. Let me put a visual to it:


BenHoganClubBehindHands.jpg
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33833

  • Lane Holt
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Martin,

Great stuff ! I think this will help the average player more than anything and I hope they will pay close attention to your statement . It is obvious in the attached picture that Mr. Hogan is pulling the lever through and throwing or releasing with his hands is the LAST thing he intended to do. His hands are ,at least , over or past the ball yet he has still maintained his arms/ shaft angle. HIs shaft is almost parallel to the ground.

For what it is worth--- In my opinion this is the Best thing I have seen on this site. Keep it up !!

Thanks,
Lane
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33835

  • Cy
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Martin Ayers wrote:
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.

Now that is REALLY summing it up..../thread for me. Lots of good stuff put forth by everyone here....if you can make it your own and it becomes ONE thing...then you have 'your' secret.

What "one thing"? :laugh:

Yin and Yang, it is one or two? ;)

If you throw a golf ball with your hand into a basket 5 feet away, what is the "one thing"?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33842

  • phily
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Festus wrote:
Festus- level 17 :laugh:

what ?! there are levels above 5 ! they told me 5 was it. What have I been paying all these dues for?! sonofabitch!


Cy,

That one thing is e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. not just one 'individual' thing. total commitment to the results.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33844

  • Brian
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Man, I haven't been on here in almost a year. Did we find the secret yet??
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33845

  • Martin Ayers
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Cy wrote:
Martin Ayers wrote:
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.
It all has to become 'one thing'.

Now that is REALLY summing it up..../thread for me. Lots of good stuff put forth by everyone here....if you can make it your own and it becomes ONE thing...then you have 'your' secret.

What "one thing"? :laugh:

Yin and Yang, it is one or two? ;)

If you throw a golf ball with your hand into a basket 5 feet away, what is the "one thing"?

It's all about the ball and the basket....because you already KNOW how to do it.

One motion, in one direction with singleness of purpose....that's what's coming.....you walk into 5 feet (feeling the ground)....you see the basket with your eyes....and you feel that little Golf ball in your hands. Now it all becomes about that ONE thing...WHAT you want...NOT HOW to do it.

Thanks for the leading questions mate....seems I can always count on you to step on your crank trying to trip me up. :kiss:
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33846

  • Festus
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Martin, does it ever feel that you have a target on your back. Sometimes the bullets coming at you within the thread is unreal.

Nice response about the ball and basket. Now if the basket were moved back to perhaps 25 feet we would still do our 'one thing', yet now there may, or possibly not depending on a few things, be more knee bend used to cover the increased distance. The funny thing to me is how many people will then dice/slice/analyze/take pictures/and measure the differences in the knee movements trying to find a motivating force within as just one example of some thinking the trees are more important than the forest.

Oh well, no bullet proof vests in Dodge City, but if there were, I would pony express one to you. :laugh:
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Festus. Reason: I'm old and make mistakes...
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33847

  • Brent
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Diz wrote:
What if releasing inside the hands finish is all his secret really was and worked like a charm ... opposite instinct like he said... :whistle:


hoganbig.jpg
I have never been able to finish with my right thumb and wrist in that position. It almost appears that both his hands moved a bit on the grip during the swing. I really like that finish!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33848

  • Martin Ayers
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Lane Holt wrote:
Martin,

Great stuff ! I think this will help the average player more than anything and I hope they will pay close attention to your statement . It is obvious in the attached picture that Mr. Hogan is pulling the lever through and throwing or releasing with his hands is the LAST thing he intended to do. His hands are ,at least , over or past the ball yet he has still maintained his arms/ shaft angle. HIs shaft is almost parallel to the ground.

For what it is worth--- In my opinion this is the Best thing I have seen on this site. Keep it up !!

Thanks,
Lane
Lane
I see it this way ....... and not just to be different :)


From this point right here with the mass still traveling AWAY from the ball Hogan's hands will work in the direction of the ball due to the clearing of the body away from the intent to keep the club swinging away....

If you 'must' have a pulling intent....then that intent should be directed at pulling in 'both' of those directions....certainly no more pulling forward than pulling back.

Ignoring pull or push (I prefer to focus on the what than the how) The hands stay as far to the right of the player as possible , while the player stays behind the ball. This sets up a dynamic RE-action based on anatomical reality and physical certainty at this point....THE CLUB IS BEHIND THE PLAYER, THE PLAYER IS BEHIND THE BALL (WHICH KEEPS THE PLAYER OUT OF THE WAY DESPITE HIS BEST EFFORTS TO GET IN IT'S WAY BY PRESSURING IT TO HIS RIGHT) IF THE PLAYER WERE TO GET AHEAD OF THE BALL HE WOULD HAVE TO GET OUT OF ITS WAY IN ACTUALITY AT SOME POINT IN ORDER FOR IT TO BE DELIVERED PAST HIM WHICH WILL NOT ALLOW HIM TO MAINTAIN THAT PRESSURE BACK TO HIS RIGHT TO THE UTMOST.

This energised MASS must swing past the player, no need to help it for it to happen...I prefer to continue building the energy (and it's in this that Gerry's words in his book ring VERY true to me wrt controlling the descent)...

From this point if the upper centre (thorax region) stays out toward the ball line/target line, and even with the intent to keep the arms and club to the right as much as possible....the MASS there will get SENT through the hitting zone because there is nothing in its way and the energy MUST go somewhere....there comes a time (basically when the club get's below the hands) that the inertia of the swinging mass will override any intention to keep the arms and club to the right.

This does not take into account shot making, I am talking very generally about swing dynamics here. You can add little pieces into that however you like...and as I said, if it helps you to think pull or push that's fine....provided you don't try to bring the club in front of you or past you you will get the same reaction as Hogan.....which is not to say you will have every detail or skill that he possessed for shot making.

Mark....the olive branch thrown out via PM....wrt Axe work on a tree....the CAPS SECTION would be some initial thoughts on that. I wouldn't get ahead of the tree I was trying to chop...I would probably step my left foot just past the edge of the tree I was going to strike which would give me 'the point' of impact.....but my body mass would not go in the direction of the left foot as I struck.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33849

  • Martin Ayers
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One final note on this picture that I really hope people can see and take on board....
Note how he is WELL WITHIN HIMSELF at this point....his main body including his legs (all that with the exception of the arms and hands) is working INTO position which is in direct contrast to that which is swinging away from him...counterbalanced.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33853

  • Cy
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Martin Ayers wrote:

It's all about the ball and the basket....because you already KNOW how to do it.

Yes absolutely! But the ball and the basket are TWO objects/things. Should I focus on the ball or the basket or both? ;-) :P
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 4 months ago #33857

  • Drew Art
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"I must add a note of warning here. Special tips from Hogan or any other professional not acquainted with your style may or may not help your particular game. Ben could tell you how he does it, but some of his moves on a course might be the worst thing in the world for you to try. The only person actually qualified to equip your game with the appropriate tricks is your own pro. It's his job to know your needs. A conscientious home pro should be eager to build up the game of each player at his club. It's a matter of sheer pride with him, and common business sense as well."

Jimmy Demaret, My Partner Ben Hogan, Chapter 8.
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