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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33977

  • Drew Art
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You guys are missing the bigger picture with the hands vs. body leading debate.

There are three linkages (joints) between the torso and the hands on each side, namely: the shoulders, the elbows and the wirsts. There is a left and a right side.

The golfer can orient these in certain ways by FEELINGS, and the orientation of each becaomes important when it comes to understanding what direction the club face is able to move.

"If you don't know golf as a game of feeling, you are like a deaf man trying to play piano by ear." - Ben Hogan.

"...I can tell by the feeling of a swing whether or not a shot I have hit is good or bad. ... In your mind should be, rather than a picture, the sensation that is associated with the properly made swing.... Maybe .. one item of muscular consciousness will register with you as you are making a good swing."

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/forum/190-...se-by-ben-hogan-1943


Drills and practice build repetition of sensations of well struck shots. We can use the mind and boy to produce the Intentions to cause those sensations to repeat. Practice, perform, refine, repeat.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33980

  • Grady Dickens
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On my question of U v V "feeling" I have gotten a couple of replies. FWIW, I feel a V coming into impact and a U post impact.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33981

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Drew Art wrote:
You guys are missing the bigger picture with the hands vs. body leading debate.

There are three linkages (joints) between the torso and the hands on each side, namely: the shoulders, the elbows and the wirsts. There is a left and a right side.

The golfer can orient these in certain ways by FEELINGS, and the orientation of each becaomes important when it comes to understanding what direction the club face is able to move.

"If you don't know golf as a game of feeling, you are like a deaf man trying to play piano by ear." - Ben Hogan.

It seems that Mr. Hogan knew about Ernest Jones "Swing The Clubhead"! ;)
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33982

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Cy,

While Hogan may have heard of Mr. Jones and his manhattan studio where thousands of beginning golfers hit into nets and heard Mr. Jones' golf mantras, I've never read or heard anything from Hogan as pithy or vague as simply "swing the clubhead."

Hogan had a thorough understanding of his swing motion, and what made the club work the way he intended.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33983

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Drew Art wrote:
Cy,

Hogan had a thorough understanding of his swing motion, and what made the club work the way he intended.

Yes, I agree. But when he was talking about pronation and supination in 5L, it was clear that he never had an anatomy class! :laugh:
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33984

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Dave wrote:
Interesting post. JMHO here:

Most every golfer I've ever spoken to has swallowed the "swing with the body" medicine. IMO struggling golfers are often the ones who are trying to use their body but can't figure it out. Its such an unnatural idea, the brain has no precedent for. All throwing or hitting actions start with what you want the hand(s) to do and work backwards from there. The body supports. To pick one example, no tennis instruction I have ever seen teaches a ground-up pivot to hit a forehand (though that is actually what happens).
The lower body must get OUT OF THE WAY. Why? Why is it in the way in the first place? Noone moves off their feet during the swing, so why can't they just come back to the ball the way they started? IMO what you are describing is an ideal kinetic sequence to generate power/speed, not a physical reality. This is a very important difference. People get stuck because they setup incorrectly and/or allow their body to turn off the ball and the club pulls them to a place where they have to move something to get back where they started in order to hit the ball. Nothing is "in the way".
Finally, "Your body will not "react" to your hands' will by magically turning out of the way". Actually it will. Try to make a swing where you hit yourself with the clubhead (impossible of course) and your body will most certainly react :-) Or try to make a full-power swing where you stop at the ball (again, impossible) and see how your body clears and reacts differently. Or try to make a swing where you aim at the left front of the ball, 2 feet behind the ball, 2 feet in front (all from same starting position) and see the difference.
The arm/club swing and the body behaviour are the Yin and the Yang. Neither controls the other, neither can be eliminated, both just ARE. Job is to find the right relationship between them.
BTW, I'm not posting this because I think anything you say is wrong per se. More because I want to present another side of the picture.
Dave, and for the other 'hand centric' folks here - help me understand where you're coming from ...

What is starting/triggering the downswing for you as the club is still traveling back at the top?
Are you saying that the left knee is controlled by the hands or are you saying the weight shift is controlled by the hands or are you saying the left heel plant etc. is controlled by the hands (again - while the club is still moving back at the top and / or during transition)?
In other words, what is 'leading' the downswing for you? Just curious.

Part of the reason I ask is because the only time I see hands informing the action of the lower body, where the lower body "must get out of the way", is when watching OTT flippers on the range. So I thought maybe you or Mark or Lane could help me better spot those golfers that are 'enlightened' in the use of the hands to control the whole show.


Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33985

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Grady Dickens wrote:
On my question of U v V "feeling" I have gotten a couple of replies. FWIW, I feel a V coming into impact and a U post impact.

dammit! I knew it was a trick question.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33986

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Grady Dickens wrote:
On my question of U v V "feeling" I have gotten a couple of replies. FWIW, I feel a V coming into impact and a U post impact.

Grady,

I guess I might have misinterpreted your original question. MY handpath FEELS more curved coming down (down and out) and more linear after the hands hit their low point (in and up). The move from OUT to IN is what FEELS very abrupt ... kind of like a SNAP of the entire right side, in those rare occasions when I do it exactly as I want to. LOL.

mh
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33987

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phily wrote:
Dave wrote:
Interesting post. JMHO here:

Most every golfer I've ever spoken to has swallowed the "swing with the body" medicine. IMO struggling golfers are often the ones who are trying to use their body but can't figure it out. Its such an unnatural idea, the brain has no precedent for. All throwing or hitting actions start with what you want the hand(s) to do and work backwards from there. The body supports. To pick one example, no tennis instruction I have ever seen teaches a ground-up pivot to hit a forehand (though that is actually what happens).
The lower body must get OUT OF THE WAY. Why? Why is it in the way in the first place? Noone moves off their feet during the swing, so why can't they just come back to the ball the way they started? IMO what you are describing is an ideal kinetic sequence to generate power/speed, not a physical reality. This is a very important difference. People get stuck because they setup incorrectly and/or allow their body to turn off the ball and the club pulls them to a place where they have to move something to get back where they started in order to hit the ball. Nothing is "in the way".
Finally, "Your body will not "react" to your hands' will by magically turning out of the way". Actually it will. Try to make a swing where you hit yourself with the clubhead (impossible of course) and your body will most certainly react :-) Or try to make a full-power swing where you stop at the ball (again, impossible) and see how your body clears and reacts differently. Or try to make a swing where you aim at the left front of the ball, 2 feet behind the ball, 2 feet in front (all from same starting position) and see the difference.
The arm/club swing and the body behaviour are the Yin and the Yang. Neither controls the other, neither can be eliminated, both just ARE. Job is to find the right relationship between them.
BTW, I'm not posting this because I think anything you say is wrong per se. More because I want to present another side of the picture.
Dave, and for the other 'hand centric' folks here - help me understand where you're coming from ...

What is starting/triggering the downswing for you as the club is still traveling back at the top?
Are you saying that the left knee is controlled by the hands or are you saying the weight shift is controlled by the hands or are you saying the left heel plant etc. is controlled by the hands (again - while the club is still moving back at the top and / or during transition)?
In other words, what is 'leading' the downswing for you? Just curious.

Part of the reason I ask is because the only time I see hands informing the action of the lower body, where the lower body "must get out of the way", is when watching OTT flippers on the range. So I thought maybe you or Mark or Lane could help me better spot those golfers that are 'enlightened' in the use of the hands to control the whole show.




Phily ,

I think Dave gives a great perspective, and example of what he thinks, feels and ,executes or simply, how it works for him.

Think about it this way. The hands are the only ingredient, in the swing motion, that if left out, there would be no swing.

Or maybe we could think of it as a body that "REACTS" to the motion of the hands. How do we know that?

The hands have no legs or arms and cannot move without the body moving it, physically. However, the body has no notion of the swing other than to move the hands where they need to go. The body also has no notion of the club, except what the hands feel. So if the body has no information about the swing, cannot feel the club first hand, :) , how can it control the swing. It is merely the cab that goes where the fare tells the driver to go. The cab must comply. So again, yes, physically the body move us, but the hands direct it.

The body "reacts" to the hands.

Even when we eat, the hands move first, and then the head moves to the hand. So the hands even control the head :) The hands will always move first.

When Hogan talks about the waggle, it is the hands that move to prepare the body for what is comming. Right?

So even his first thoughts, as he sets his address position is the let the hands guide the body into the correct position to move them throughout the swing. The very first thing he does is walk up to the ball and set the club and hands to the ball, and works his way back. The hands are also the first thing to move in his swing, BS and DS, if we look closely.

BTW, Hogan does have a OTT move, but the flip is after impact.

To be honest, there are many more questions than answers here. That is not to say there are no answers, just not here, yet.

My point is, we have looked at everything else, why not the hands?

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33988

  • Grady Dickens
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@MH,

That is real interesting. I feel a straight line way out to the right, but do feel some curve as I get that open clubface into the ball. I need more snap. John has me working on some crazy stuff right now that will hopefully get me that right side SNAP you speak of.

Watch Hogan at 1:39 mark



Watch De Vincenzo at the 2:00 mark



And of course watch Gary Player

Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by Grady Dickens.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33989

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Something came to mind as I starting thinking more about the hands and how they control the swing.

Many here are of the belief that we are afforded but a few, if not only one swing thought.

Some have observed the feel of the hands and their swing path, or the pressure the hands feel.

So if we are thinking of the hands, their path, what they feel, in the swing, and knowing we are able to only focus on one thing, and have one thought, the hands seem to be the obvious choice.


When I think of the hands in the swing, I don't feel distracted. Just the opposite, I "feel" connected to the motion, in control.

If I Think about what the club is doing, it's path, what the rest of my body is doing, I feel confused,distracted, artificial, overwhelmed, lost and the swing feels manufactured, and not mine.

It just makes so much more sense, mentaly and physically to concentrate on one simple thing. The "Hands", from beginning to end.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33993

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Here is another testiment to support how the natural instincts of the hand , it's motion,or how it naturally wants to swing, should at the very least be observed as a possible way to improve our golf swing motion.

Of course this is just putting, the stance is different and grip, but if we believe that our swing motion is the same with all the clubs, feel wise, then why not use this observation of the hands and how they swing, in our full swing?

The golf swing would sure be alot simpler if we thought in these terms and logical way of approaching or building our golf swing.



english.pravda.ru/health/21-04-2006/79411-hand-0/

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by 1lovegolf24.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33996

  • Lee Comeaux
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Here is another testiment to support how the natural instincts of the hand , it's motion,or how it naturally wants to swing, should at the very least be observed as a possible way to improve our golf swing motion.

Of course this is just putting, the stance is different and grip, but if we believe that our swing motion is the same with all the clubs, feel wise, then why not use this observation of the hands and how they swing, in our full swing?

The golf swing would sure be alot simpler if we thought in these terms and logical way of approaching or building our golf swing.



english.pravda.ru/health/21-04-2006/79411-hand-0/

Mark, 1lovegolf24


WOW MARK THIS GUY MR. FLECKMAN IS MY GOLFING IDOL AND FROM MY HOMETOWN NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SEE HIM ON HERE. WHEN I TELL YOU THIS GUY CAN FLAT DO THINGS WITH A BALL THAT IS UNREAL HE SIMPLY CAN. COMPRESSION THIS GUY INVENTED. WHEN I WAS A KID I SAT AND WATCHED HIM WITH MY EYES CLOSED FOR HOURS THE SOUND HIS BALL MADE WAS SOMETHING TO HEAR. YOU DID NOT HAVE TO LOOK UP YOU KNEW WHERE IT WAS GOING. ALSO MARTY IS ONE OF THE FINEST MEN I HAVE EVER HAD THE PLEASURE OF MEETING IN GOLF HE IS AT BLACKHORSE CC IN HOUSTON AND I RECOMMEND ANYONE THAT CAN GO GET A LESSON FROM HIM. ASK HIM TO HIT SOME WEDGES FOR YOU AND SIT BACK AND JUST WATCH IT IS UNREAL WHAT HE DOES WITH A WEDGE IN HIS MITS.

THERE ARE TWO KEY SPOTS ONE IN THE PALM AND ONE IN THE LOWER FOREARM WITH THE FOUR FINGERS ALSO POINTING AT THE SPOT IN THE PALM. THE THUMB IS MAINLY A RUTTER TO US NATURALLY ONLY USED FOR GRABBING SOMETHING TO PLACE IN THE PALM AFTER THAT THE THUMB HAS NO REAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN STAY OUT THE WAY TILL THE TASK IS DONE. THE ACTUAL POINTS IN THE PALM AND FOREARM ARE POINTING 90 DEGREES LEFT OF MARTY IN THIS VIDEO NOW OPTIMUM WOULD BE TO TURN LIKE WE ALL DO AND AIM THOSE POINTS AT THE LINE OR THE TARGET WE ARE PUTTING TO. SEE THE FINGERS HAVE NO MUSCLES ONLY LIGAMENTS IN THEM. GREAT PUTTING OR HITTING FOR THAT MATTER COMES FROM THE INSIDE BASE OF THUMB IN THE PALM AND THE MIDDLE OF THE LOWER FOREARM. NOT WRIST FOREARM. TO BE VERY EXACT. WHILE YES THIS IS A GREAT WAY TO PUTT IT WILL NEVER FLY IN GOLF JUST BECAUSE AND THAT IS A SHAME. BUT IF YOU WANT TO LOOK NORMAL LEARN THE POINTS IN THE PALM AND FOREARM AS WELL AS THE KEY FINGERS IN THE HAND AND THEIR WEBBING AT THE BASE OF THE FINGERS. THEN PUTTING BECOMES EASY TO PERFORM. IN THIS VIDEO HE IS USING THE RIGHT COLLAR BONE MOTION THAT WORKS LIKE A KEY IN A DOOR TO CREATE A LEVER OR PENDULLUM. ITS ACTUALLY BRILLIANT AND ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO CREATE THAT TASK. THE DIVING MAIN MUSCLE IS THE BICEP FOR THIS TASK ANOTHER SUPERIOR CHOICE.

THE HAND WANTS TO SWING AGAINST THE COLLAR BONE AND STERNUM AND THE CONNECTION AT THE TWO COLLAR BONES THAT IS WHAT OUR HANDS SWING AGAINST IT IS THE THROAT OR NECK AND THE HEAD THAT APPLIES RESISTANCE AGAINST THE SWING OF THOSE PARTS.IN THE PUTTER THE PART THAT WE SWING IS THE FLAT END OF THE GRIP THAT LIES BETWEEN THE HAND AND THE COLLAR BONE. THAT END CONTROLS THE HEAD END IN REAL LIFE ENGINEERING. THE LOGICAL WAY OF LEARNING SOMETHING IS FOUND ALL OVER THE INTERNET. OVER A QUARTER OF THE HUMAN BRAIN OR MOTOR CORTEX IS DEDICATED TO THE HANDS FOR LEARNING MOTOR FUNCTIONS. THERE ONLY JUST OVER A QUARTER OF YOUR BRAIN IS DEDICATED TO LERANING A MOTOR FUNCTION AND NO MORE THE REST IS FOR OTHER STUFF THAT JUST DOES NOT APPLY TO MOTOR FUNCTION.

ALSO THIS PUTTING STYLE IS TRACKING THE HEAD AXIS NOT THE BODY HE IS PUTTING ALONG THE NASAL AXIS BUT INTO THE CORONAL AXIS AGAIN VERY SIMPLE DEAL SO DONT MOVE THE HEAD AXIS MUCH WHEN DOING THIS. THEREFORE THE FEET SET UP IN A WAY TO REPEATABLY SET THE HEAD AXIS BASED ON WHERE THE HANDS SET THE BUTT OF CLUB.

AS FOR ANY CONFLICT BETWEEN LEFT AND RIGHT SIDES OR HANDS IS EASY JUST LEARN HOW TO PRACTICE ONLY FEELING AND FOCUSING ON ONE HAND OR ARM. IT IS REALLY A LOT EASIER THAN TRYING TO LEARN TO FEEL TWO IN FACT IM PRETTY SURE WE CANNOT FOCUS ON TWO AT ONETIME ANOTHER NOT BUILT IN FUNCTION BUT IM SURE A PERSON COULD LEARN. JUST USE THE ALREADY GIVEN TOO YOU FUNCTION OF FEELING ONLY ONESIDE. ITS ALREADY THERE.

WATCH HIS RIGHT BICEP TELLS THE WHOLE STORY IN THE END. BUT IT TOOK HIM ABOUT A WEEK TO TRAIN THAT TO BECOME AUTOMATIC IN THE BICEP. NOW HE JUST HITS THE POINTS IN THE HAND AND GOES WITH THE BICEP MAKING THE PUTTS..... JUST LIKE HITTING A BALL IT IS THE BICEPS IN THE ARMS THAT ARE THE WORHORSE....OR SUPPLIER OF ENERGY.FACT.


LEE
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33997

  • Lee Comeaux
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Here is another testiment to support how the natural instincts of the hand , it's motion,or how it naturally wants to swing, should at the very least be observed as a possible way to improve our golf swing motion.

Of course this is just putting, the stance is different and grip, but if we believe that our swing motion is the same with all the clubs, feel wise, then why not use this observation of the hands and how they swing, in our full swing?

The golf swing would sure be alot simpler if we thought in these terms and logical way of approaching or building our golf swing.



english.pravda.ru/health/21-04-2006/79411-hand-0/

Mark, 1lovegolf24


WOW MARK THIS GUY MR. FLECKMAN IS MY GOLFING IDOL AND FROM MY HOMETOWN NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SEE HIM ON HERE. WHEN I TELL YOU THIS GUY CAN FLAT DO THINGS WITH A BALL THAT IS UNREAL HE SIMPLY CAN. COMPRESSION THIS GUY INVENTED. WHEN I WAS A KID I SAT AND WATCHED HIM WITH MY EYES CLOSED FOR HOURS THE SOUND HIS BALL MADE WAS SOMETHING TO HEAR. YOU DID NOT HAVE TO LOOK UP YOU KNEW WHERE IT WAS GOING. ALSO MARTY IS ONE OF THE FINEST MEN I HAVE EVER HAD THE PLEASURE OF MEETING IN GOLF HE IS AT BLACKHORSE CC IN HOUSTON AND I RECOMMEND ANYONE THAT CAN GO GET A LESSON FROM HIM. ASK HIM TO HIT SOME WEDGES FOR YOU AND SIT BACK AND JUST WATCH IT IS UNREAL WHAT HE DOES WITH A WEDGE IN HIS MITS.

THERE ARE TWO KEY SPOTS ONE IN THE PALM AND ONE IN THE LOWER FOREARM WITH THE FOUR FINGERS ALSO POINTING AT THE SPOT IN THE PALM. THE THUMB IS MAINLY A RUTTER TO US NATURALLY ONLY USED FOR GRABBING SOMETHING TO PLACE IN THE PALM AFTER THAT THE THUMB HAS NO REAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN STAY OUT THE WAY TILL THE TASK IS DONE. THE ACTUAL POINTS IN THE PALM AND FOREARM ARE POINTING 90 DEGREES LEFT OF MARTY IN THIS VIDEO NOW OPTIMUM WOULD BE TO TURN LIKE WE ALL DO AND AIM THOSE POINTS AT THE LINE OR THE TARGET WE ARE PUTTING TO. SEE THE FINGERS HAVE NO MUSCLES ONLY LIGAMENTS IN THEM. GREAT PUTTING OR HITTING FOR THAT MATTER COMES FROM THE INSIDE BASE OF THUMB IN THE PALM AND THE MIDDLE OF THE LOWER FOREARM. NOT WRIST FOREARM. TO BE VERY EXACT. WHILE YES THIS IS A GREAT WAY TO PUTT IT WILL NEVER FLY IN GOLF JUST BECAUSE AND THAT IS A SHAME. BUT IF YOU WANT TO LOOK NORMAL LEARN THE POINTS IN THE PALM AND FOREARM AS WELL AS THE KEY FINGERS IN THE HAND AND THEIR WEBBING AT THE BASE OF THE FINGERS. THEN PUTTING BECOMES EASY TO PERFORM. IN THIS VIDEO HE IS USING THE RIGHT COLLAR BONE MOTION THAT WORKS LIKE A KEY IN A DOOR TO CREATE A LEVER OR PENDULLUM. ITS ACTUALLY BRILLIANT AND ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO CREATE THAT TASK. THE DIVING MAIN MUSCLE IS THE BICEP FOR THIS TASK ANOTHER SUPERIOR CHOICE.

THE HAND WANTS TO SWING AGAINST THE COLLAR BONE AND STERNUM AND THE CONNECTION AT THE TWO COLLAR BONES THAT IS WHAT OUR HANDS SWING AGAINST IT IS THE THROAT OR NECK AND THE HEAD THAT APPLIES RESISTANCE AGAINST THE SWING OF THOSE PARTS.IN THE PUTTER THE PART THAT WE SWING IS THE FLAT END OF THE GRIP THAT LIES BETWEEN THE HAND AND THE COLLAR BONE. THAT END CONTROLS THE HEAD END OR SOLE IN REAL LIFE ENGINEERING. THE LOGICAL WAY OF LEARNING SOMETHING IS FOUND ALL OVER THE INTERNET. OVER A QUARTER OF THE HUMAN BRAIN OR MOTOR CORTEX IS DEDICATED TO THE HANDS FOR LEARNING MOTOR FUNCTIONS. THEREFORE ONLY JUST OVER A QUARTER OF YOUR BRAIN IS DEDICATED TO LERANING A MOTOR FUNCTION AND NO MORE THE REST IS FOR OTHER STUFF THAT JUST DOES NOT APPLY TO MOTOR FUNCTION.

ALSO THIS PUTTING STYLE IS TRACKING THE HEAD AXIS NOT THE BODY HE IS PUTTING ALONG THE NASAL AXIS BUT INTO THE CORONAL AXIS AGAIN VERY SIMPLE DEAL SO DONT MOVE THE HEAD AXIS MUCH WHEN DOING THIS. THEREFORE THE FEET SET UP IN A WAY TO REPEATABLY SET THE HEAD AXIS BASED ON WHERE THE HANDS SET THE BUTT OF CLUB.

AS FOR ANY CONFLICT BETWEEN LEFT AND RIGHT SIDES OR HANDS IS EASY JUST LEARN HOW TO PRACTICE ONLY FEELING AND FOCUSING ON ONE HAND OR ARM. IT IS REALLY A LOT EASIER THAN TRYING TO LEARN TO FEEL TWO IN FACT IM PRETTY SURE WE CANNOT FOCUS ON TWO AT ONETIME ANOTHER NOT BUILT IN FUNCTION BUT IM SURE A PERSON COULD LEARN. JUST USE THE ALREADY GIVEN TOO YOU FUNCTION OF FEELING ONLY ONESIDE. ITS ALREADY THERE.

WATCH HIS RIGHT BICEP TELLS THE WHOLE STORY IN THE END. BUT IT TOOK HIM ABOUT A WEEK TO TRAIN THAT TO BECOME AUTOMATIC IN THE BICEP. NOW HE JUST HITS THE POINTS IN THE HAND AND GOES WITH THE BICEP MAKING THE PUTTS..... JUST LIKE HITTING A BALL IT IS THE BICEPS IN THE ARMS THAT ARE THE WORHORSE....OR SUPPLIER OF ENERGY HAND THE HANDS LOAD THE BICEPS WITH THAT ENERGY ONLY TO BE SENT BACK THROUGH THE HANDS DOWN THE SHAFT INTO THE BALL THAT IS THE SEQUENCE OF HOW AND WHERE THE POWER SUPPLY GOES TURNS AROUND AND GOES BACK OUT IN THE REAL WORLD.FACT. HOPE THAT HELPS A LITTLE. BUT YOU ARE ON TRACK WITH GIVING THE HANDS THERE RESPECT THEY ARE NUMBER ONE IN THE LINE OF HIGHER MOTION LEARNING AND IMPROVEMENT. SO ONE WOULD THINK STARTING AND STAYING THERE WOULD BE THE BEST PLACE. YOU WOULD THINK... THATS WHAT AND WHERE I DO AND TRAIN OTHERS TO DO. AGAIN THAT IS JUST THE PLACE I CHOSE IS ALL IT WAS THE ONE PLACE THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT MOTOR FUNCTIONS ARE LEARNED SO THAT IS WHY I CHOSE IT. IT WAS TOTALLY LOGICAL CHOICE WOULD YOU NOT AGREE. I HAD BEEN TRYING TO REINVENT MY WHEEL FOR 30 YEARS CAUSE I DID NOT CHOSE MY HANDS TO LEARN FROM AND IT WAS A BATTLE EVERYDAY BACK THEN FOR ME. NOT NOW THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE THATS ALL.


LEE
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #33998

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Lee,

Thanks for stopping by. Great post and info, as usual. Also, thanks to Mr. Fleckman too.

Maybe , when you have some time, you can share some more of your thoughts and how you train.

Thanks again.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34000

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Here is another testiment to support how the natural instincts of the hand , it's motion,or how it naturally wants to swing, should at the very least be observed as a possible way to improve our golf swing motion.

Of course this is just putting, the stance is different and grip, but if we believe that our swing motion is the same with all the clubs, feel wise, then why not use this observation of the hands and how they swing, in our full swing?

The golf swing would sure be alot simpler if we thought in these terms and logical way of approaching or building our golf swing.



english.pravda.ru/health/21-04-2006/79411-hand-0/

Mark, 1lovegolf24



SneadWhy.JPG
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34004

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The USGA does not like pendulum style putting strokes. I wonder if the Wonder Putter got a legality ruling that was based only on the design or both the design AND how it is intended to be used.

From the USGA club design regs: "If the overall design of the [putter] is such that the player can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the shaft may be required to diverge [more than the required minumum of 10*] from the vertical in this plane by as much as 25 degrees."

In plain english, the most upright lie angle a putter can have is 80* (very upright) UNLESS it is being used in near vertical pendulum style putting stroke, in which case, the USGA can set the most upright lie angle as flat as 65* (very flat). Big range of discretion there.

So, it is not just an equipment rule, but an equipment + how it is used in the stroke rule.

Query where is the consistent logic between (1) this rule designed to prohibit pendulum style putting strokes and (2) the permissiveness towward all the anchored styles of putting with long and belly putters that is proliferating these days? Hard to see a rule of reason.
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34005

  • Lee Comeaux
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Lee,

Thanks for stopping by. Great post and info, as usual. Also, thanks to Mr. Fleckman too.

Maybe , when you have some time, you can share some more of your thoughts and how you train.

Thanks again.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

go to the cmotion thread there are two videos I put up today Mark on that. If you like you may post them here in your thread that would be fine by me. How we train is simple we accept some things as facts and live with that acceptance then go out and think about how we would train the hands. let the hands talk to you and you need to listen. There was nobody within 1000000 miles of me that I could ask how to do this I did it based on facts I learned about us and how we should leran a mechanical function. There is no perfect way there is simple ways to start. The video is a base guide for people. However you have to buy into the fact that the hands will train you quick fast and permanent or your wasting your time. Unless a person believes in what it is he is doing I do not care what way they try they will EPIC FAIL 100% of the time. So the hardest part is for every person on this site to PICK something anything and believe in that. Now what to pick is again based on FACTS of how all the smartest minds in the world say we LEARN on a basic level. In reality there really is no HIGHER level per say of learning. When simple FACTS are every where and and screaming at you and you hear them you have to listen to what your gut is telling you. I get that you and alot of people want Me or Martin or Bradley or whoever to say yes THIS IS IT. Well we all got where we are at simply by making a choice and not hanging our hopes on another mans OPINION. We made our own and that was the day it started making sense to all three of us. ALL three different ways of doing the same thing. Hitting a Golf ball. That is step one what is the real goal. HIT A BALL FROM HERE TO THERE. Step two is. What is the way in which I think I can BEST DO IT. This takes a lot of personal thought and understanding on how we personally think it needs to be done. For me it was HIT IT WITH MY HANDS AND FEET because I learned that those two work together in life all the time. So do I need two or one hand to do it. That part there was nobody or nothing written about again it was a choice I personally made and learned that it was totally possible to do and easier FOR ME. AFter that I stayed as far away from certain things as I could like planes or looping paths and TIMING weight shift in the feet. Also learned that the sternum was a great place to PIVOT or TURN from and it was connected to my hands. From there I stopped adding stuff I literally STOOPED looking below my armpits did not need too. I hit it better and harder and more controlled than i ever dreamed and IT WORKED DAY AFTER DAY.

So in short these are the criteria and the choices I made and I now live with and by everyday. So the biggest piece for me was these choices not the mechanics I now do and understand. Yes I learned more about the body then you can imagine but that was personal and it was like a drug to me I just enjoyed learning it BUT not for better GOLF just for better understanding of why people do things WRONG not RIGHT. I learned them for how things go WRONG. I found that if you let the hands do it everything automatically goes right that is what the SMART guys are saying. Motor function goes right from here. At least it has for me a lots of others I have show. But so has Martin helped tons and Bradley and Mike all are improving people everyday. So I am by far the small fish in the DIRTS pond. I just dont have time for BS so people tend to at least read what I say. Most probably dont even agree with any of it and that is awesome in my opinion it really is. At one time yes I thought this was a contest a mistake I have apologized to Mike about. It is not it has never been its about HITTING A BALL FROM HERE TO THERE nothing ever anymore than that. So base your Golf game on that because my friend that is all it is and to even argue that it is much more is just making this game to a person harder then it was ever intended to be. Thank you for allowing me to post in your thread Mark I enjoy reading it and everyday I learn how people love to think opposite of whoever is saying whatever. It appears that sometimes they think that is what Golf is about arguing theory they really do. AGAIN SOMETHING I FEEL FOR AGAIN SOMETHING I LEARNED NOT TO DO. So I am always learning but its just that I do not need to keep learning how to hit a ball FROM HERE TO THERE ANYMORE. I did that already... get my point I hope.

Lee
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34006

  • phily
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My take -

All my hands do is grip and provide feedback. Hard for them to do much else while holding lag and welded to each other via the shaft grip.
In putting my hands do even less other than the thumb pads (resting on a flat sided grip) informing me of face angle in relation to my shoulders.
in putting I don't want my hands doing squat. once set, all concentration is on my abs controlling my shoulders.
In chipping my standard method, even for flop shots, is to immediately 'hinge' and 'hold' that hinge through the shot - my core, shoulders and arms doing most of the work.

during the above, my hands do provide 'feedback' and often 'react' some to the motion (obviously in a full swing). But it's not like we are performing a motion that is something brand new to us - meaning we already know how to set our hands by now.
(btw - educated hands are something you acquire after a few years of smacking golf balls, and though it's a continuing education, everyone here hopefully has 'graduated' hands by now - so let's drop the 'educated hands' stuff please).

The increased sensitivity of hands compared to arms, core, legs is the very reason not to dwell on them and to instead focus attention on the big muscles that support, power & stabilize them. Their sensitivity is getting though no matter what - focus on them only and you drown out the rest. (think balance).
While gipping a club during a full swing you shouldn't be activating your hands anyways, unless you're into casting or flipping or desperately trying to correct a fundamental error before impact, so all they should be doing is providing feedback and maintaining grip connection.
An example that 'feedback' is their 'use' is to grab your wrist with the opposite hand and then open and close the hand of the clutched wrist. Feel all those tendons moving back and forth? Their grip 'control' is mostly from the forearms muscles but the feedback is from the increased number of nerve endings.
And feedback is always after-the-fact.

Focus on the big muscles running the show if you want to swing in balance with clubhead speed. During practice the illusion that the hands control the show is seductive. Think that they will save you or be reliable out on the course and you will be treated to a different kind of feedback.


btw - I know some here may like to putt & chip by flipping their hands but that's still your forearms running the show with hand sensitivity providing the feedback - after the fact.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34007

  • Dave
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Phily, I've tried numerous times to explain this. Every time I try, what I say gets either ignored or mischaracterised. Its like people dont want to hear it. But no matter, I'll briefly try again :-) BTW I am not a disciple of Gerry Hogan, I learn from Martin. But these are entirely my own thoughts.

Put simply and using your example, direct the hands to your intention and the body will follow. If that means that you need to plant your left heel or turn your hips, or drive the right knee or whatever, as the first move, your brain will figure that out. Building a swing around the hands DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE HANDS ARE THE ONLY THING THAT MOVES!!!

All it means is that you are using the natural ability of your brain to direct your body in support of what you are trying to achieve with your hands, to accelerate the building of an efficient motion. In terms of transition, your brain will figure out that the body should initiate, if thats the most effective way of delivering the clubhead to the ball powerfully in accordance with your intention.

It has NOTHING to do with flipping. Flipping can result from all types of things. As I've said, the vast majority of golfers are trying to power their swing with the body. The inefficient motions resulting are because its so damn hard to figure it out this way.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34008

  • Cy
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Dave wrote:

As I've said, the vast majority of golfers are trying to power their swing with the body. The inefficient motions resulting are because its so damn hard to figure it out this way.

Dave, I am in the "hands" camp of Ernest Jones "Swing The Clubhead". The "vast majority of golfers", I believe, are in fact hands and arms swingers who are DISCONNECTED from the body and the clubhead.

On the other side, there are few body swingers with "dead" hands who swing like robots.

The hands should give you the dynamic and real time feel of your swing (i.e. clubhead and clubface position & orientation, etc.), and transmit the power of the main engine of the swing (i.e. the upper body) to the club and the ball.

To compress the ball effectively, you need the power of the body behind your hands and arms strike like in boxing or in karate. Without the body power, even hitting with "three right hands" will be wishful thinking! :)
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34010

  • phily
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Dave wrote:
Phily, I've tried numerous times to explain this. Every time I try, what I say gets either ignored or mischaracterised. Its like people dont want to hear it. But no matter, I'll briefly try again :-) BTW I am not a disciple of Gerry Hogan, I learn from Martin. But these are entirely my own thoughts.
Put simply and using your example, direct the hands to your intention and the body will follow. If that means that you need to plant your left heel or turn your hips, or drive the right knee or whatever, as the first move, your brain will figure that out. Building a swing around the hands DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE HANDS ARE THE ONLY THING THAT MOVES!!!
All it means is that you are using the natural ability of your brain to direct your body in support of what you are trying to achieve with your hands, to accelerate the building of an efficient motion. In terms of transition, your brain will figure out that the body should initiate, if thats the most effective way of delivering the clubhead to the ball powerfully in accordance with your intention.
It has NOTHING to do with flipping. Flipping can result from all types of things. As I've said, the vast majority of golfers are trying to power their swing with the body. The inefficient motions resulting are because its so damn hard to figure it out this way.
That's exactly it - your brain isn't figuring anything out - it was previously programed from years of play & practice. Your brain is executing / combining programs from memory at this point. The hands were and still are just an input device to the brain only now through so much repetition a good golfer knows how to sublimate their interference (go against every natural instinct - remember when we all first tried to swing) and place focus elsewhere until the hands have been brought into position.
The misconception here is that you are championing the hands as 'the' source but you are actually looking back to memory - since the swing happens in the present and all nerve endings can do is sense, then hands don't do squat but prep you for the next swing, get in the way, or with that feedback help correct a fundamental error on the fly (also not good).

I want to control the club not use it's feedback to control my body. The purpose of a body swing is to express the action with the club under it's control.

To be honest my hands are the last thing on my mind until the beginning of the 'last' 3rd of the swing. meaning it's too late. meaning I've built my swing around my body - it works well and my hands don't have to add or detract - as talented as all our hands are this method produces far better reliability.

btw - I do actually understand what you are saying. My point is that you are doing yourself a disservice by 'feeling' that this is true. Let me put it this way - let's say that all you 'hands guys' are 'scientifically' correct. ok.? When it comes to having the swing you want you would be dead wrong. It's the long, long road. Think 'body informs / controls the swing' - your giving the hands too much respect, they don't need it. By giving them less to do the more they will perform for 'you'.


(incidentally, haven't hit in a while - but tried out my arm this morning on a grass range - it took a dozen balls to shut the hands down and once the brain focused on the body everything just happened).
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34011

  • Dave
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I wouldnt disagree with all that youre saying here at all. My swing at present, my hands play no active role at all and I'm not really thinking about them. I'm focusing more on the action of the club and my bodys reaction to it. But thats just where I am right now.

What I AM suggesting is that by understanding and focusing on where we want the hands to go - hand-path, swing-path etc, we have a better chance of understanding what we're trying to achieve and developing the right body motions.

To me, there are two dead ends in modern golf teaching - plane analysis and big-muscle swinging. The brain just doesnt get it. JMO though.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34014

  • phily
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Dave wrote:
I wouldnt disagree with all that youre saying here at all. My swing at present, my hands play no active role at all and I'm not really thinking about them. I'm focusing more on the action of the club and my bodys reaction to it. But thats just where I am right now.

What I AM suggesting is that by understanding and focusing on where we want the hands to go - hand-path, swing-path etc, we have a better chance of understanding what we're trying to achieve and developing the right body motions.

To me, there are two dead ends in modern golf teaching - plane analysis and big-muscle swinging. The brain just doesnt get it. JMO though.
I got you Dave.

fwiw - during that rehab range session I did have to remind myself to use a closer 'hand path' through the bottom of the arc.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34015

  • Bradley Hughes
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someone has posted this (or a similar video before)...........




rosehogan.JPG


similar to something I posted a while back about Ted Williams and Hogan

bentedlines_2012-06-27.jpg


Nothing like this below which is velocity based throwing of the arms and hands and stalling body


HoganBubba.JPG
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