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From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

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TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34198

  • Drew Art
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Regarding shortened arm travel, watch this one:



I think what he does by this point in the late 50s, is let the club find the max wrist cock (angle from the hands to the forarms through the wrist joint) sooner.

You can think of it as shortening arm swing, or try thinking of it as getting to full wrist cock at the top a bit earlier.

You might try thinking of swinging INTO this going back... swing into a spring that has pre-tension going back.

The dynamics here are just SO refined. I could watch it forever. The feeling of this really is that sensation of the swing being over before it starts. Watch the bounce down from the top at the finish. The slack was all wrung out of it. Pure ESSENCE of Hogan right here. The impeccable tempo and chain action all throughout...
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34199

  • Grady Dickens
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BHSP wrote

The only major difference I always notice is the way the club exits.....I'm not sure what this part of the swing is called, but it just looks like you're holding on the the club or something..it doesn't explode to the heavens.

@BHSP

I could have gone at this one harder, but generally I ain't going to give you this one. One of the things I think is closest to Hogan about my swing is my post impact finish. Very high and to the heavens.


GradyFinish.jpg




HoganFinish.jpg


Compare those stills to a "modern" player who has stalled and thrown his arms. The left arm typically folds much more:


FowlerFinish.jpg



On gear, yes flat, heavy and stiff. You need a driver with a dead weight of at least 14 oz. I don't know what the dead weight of my irons is, but the swing weights range from d-8 in the 2 iron to e-7 in the PW. Irons are 6 flat, just like Hogan.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34200

  • Grady Dickens
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Drew,

That is one of my favorite videos. Watch the first practice swing with the short iron. It says it all. There is a lot of intention there...lots of ducks...it looks pretty...but notice how aggressive he gets as he nears the top.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34202

  • Drew Art
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In the full swings, like the one that repeats at 1:30 - Watch the incredible speed of the left knee move on the dowswing. THAT is tough to do (very tough for me).

In the sequence that starts at 3:00 - watch the left foot - check how it moves into, through, and post impact. That is a big torque.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34203

  • Grady Dickens
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Yes, it is and even more so when you have more knee flex. That is a big piece I need to add, but I think it goes back to how aggressive you move the left hip...which goes to how aggressive you swing. It is all connected. If you want Hogan you have to have speed.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34204

  • svsvincenzo
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Grady Dickens wrote:
Steve,

I don't see a big difference here:


GradyHalfwayBack.jpg



HoganHalfwayBack.jpg

C'mon Grady. Hogan has a driver in there. That means his plane is less vertical or flatter. That means his shoulder turn is less vertical. And his L arm is less inside than yours at that point. All these things' effect on the clubhead is that the clubhead elevates slower. But despite this, Hogan's clubhead much more elevated than yours.

C'mon, try it. Got nothing to lose. Just a couple of swings.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34205

  • Grady Dickens
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SVSV,

I have a tendency to straighten my right arm right before I take it back, which causes a loss of wristcock. If that is what you are getting at I agree with you. I was actually working on that in this swing and it is improved.

But here is Hogan with an iron, and at this point back I still see little difference.



HoganHalfwayBackIron.jpg



GradyHalfwayBack.jpg
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34206

  • svsvincenzo
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Grady Dickens wrote:
Steve,

Dustin Johnson...really?


DustinJohnson.jpg


My right arm is quite bent at impact, but it does come away from the body some. You can see it better in the face on still I posted earlier.

I agree the answer isn't more bend. I think the answer is more knee flex. That is what John says, and if you look at Archer it is hard to argue with him.

I think DJ is more like what Steve described. The only thing is, DJ stops his pivot and lets everything thru or get whipped, ala SnT/MORAD CF release. But by that time it doesn't matter. The ball is on its way already. DJ's shoulder turn is so vertical and his wrist angle is so retained so deep into the DS that anything, anything he does won't affect clubhead path and face orientation at impact.

Your R arm/elbow is straightening right before impact because you have to...otherwise its either your clubhead will dig into the ground, or you would have to lift your spine/head again so as not to hit the ground. If you obtain more angle, you wouldn't have to do either of these at all.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34207

  • Steve P
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Double
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Steve P.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34208

  • Steve P
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Grady

Two still photos could show the takeaway in almost same position between you and Hogan. The direction the clubhead is going at that position is what matters. Two pics could look exactly the same but the clubhead direction is different between the two and that's the key difference not a big difference but an important one in terms of dynamics IMO.
I am mobile and no time to post it right now BUT DJ has many nice iron shots available to see and if you freeze at impact you can see many with his right elbow bent and at his side at impact. The reason is his hands and arms were delayed and his pivot well ahead compared to yours. The still you posted is a foot past impact both arms ought to be straight right around there.
IMO Hogans club comes into the ball largely due to the change in direction of the hands supported and pulled by the pivot.
I agree one way to swing on the plane you are aiming for is extreme knee bend and from that you could have similar tilt to spine from down line.
For me at your height you have many advantages your long levers should mean you require less armswing than most do IF.the pivot and handpath through impact utilizes Hogan dynamics. Your power plane might be a bit different from his.
Really good discussion here comparing a good swing with a swing from an all time great.
pivot pivot pivot...
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34209

  • Grady Dickens
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I just never have understood the maintain wrist angle idea. As for DJ...by that time it doesn't matter. ...the ball is on its way...I couldn't disagree more. What you do there matters at impact.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34210

  • svsvincenzo
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Grady Dickens wrote:
SVSV,

I have a tendency to straighten my right arm right before I take it back, which causes a loss of wristcock. If that is what you are getting at I agree with you. I was actually working on that in this swing and it is improved.

But here is Hogan with an iron, and at this point back I still see little difference.



HoganHalfwayBackIron.jpg



GradyHalfwayBack.jpg

Sorry pards. But Hogan's clubhead is more elevated in there. I mean, the club is pointed towards the sky more. I estimate by around 5-10 degrees more. That's a lot.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34211

  • Steve P
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I definitely DO NOT advocate consciously trying to hold angles.
The dynamics creates all those.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34212

  • svsvincenzo
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Grady Dickens wrote:
I just never have understood the maintain wrist angle idea. As for DJ...by that time it doesn't matter. ...the ball is on its way...I couldn't disagree more. What you do there matters at impact.

Wrt the wrist angle idea...

insl01_hogan_weight.jpg
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34213

  • svsvincenzo
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If you can't do this at this position in a pose, there is something wrong with your angle.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34214

  • phily
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( while catching up on last couple of pages these were some thoughts running through my head)

re: Knudson lateral shift ... this old gif gives some reference -




From the book 'Afternoons smoking Hogan' -

Jody Vasquez claiming Hogan told him to "Run his right knee at the ball".... Vasquez surmises in his own words:

" The key to his downswing was that he "ran his right knee at the ball". Hogan's first movement was to push the knee inward to the left and toward the ball. This resulted in a lateral shifting and opening of the left hip. His first and only thought had to be the right knee dropping in at the ball. Hogan explained that the harder he wanted to hit the ball the faster he ran his right knee at the ball. That's why his hips unwound so fast on the downswing while feeling a complete sense of balance and control. The feeling of his knee was the only thing that mattered , he forgot about everything else in his body during that part of the swing.
When you watch videos of Hogan's downswing , you can spot how early he shifted his weight to his left side. He did the very aggressively . His hips also unwound much faster that those of an ordinary player But they are not causes , however, Both movements are made possible by the action of the right knee. By running the right knee at the ball Hogan was able to generate terrific speed in his lower body. His right knee moved so emphatically to the left that on full shots , his right knee would sometimes appear to overtake his left knee on the follow-through. By running his knee at different speeds he was able to control the amount of force he expended in to the ball though impact. "
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34215

  • moehogan
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phily wrote:
( while catching up on last couple of pages these were some thoughts running through my head)

re: Knudson lateral shift ... this old gif gives some reference -




From the book 'Afternoons smoking Hogan' -

Jody Vasquez claiming Hogan told him to "Run his right knee at the ball".... Vasquez surmises in his own words:

" The key to his downswing was that he "ran his right knee at the ball". Hogan's first movement was to push the knee inward to the left and toward the ball. This resulted in a lateral shifting and opening of the left hip. His first and only thought had to be the right knee dropping in at the ball. Hogan explained that the harder he wanted to hit the ball the faster he ran his right knee at the ball. That's why his hips unwound so fast on the downswing while feeling a complete sense of balance and control. The feeling of his knee was the only thing that mattered , he forgot about everything else in his body during that part of the swing.
When you watch videos of Hogan's downswing , you can spot how early he shifted his weight to his left side. He did the very aggressively . His hips also unwound much faster that those of an ordinary player But they are not causes , however, Both movements are made possible by the action of the right knee. By running the right knee at the ball Hogan was able to generate terrific speed in his lower body. His right knee moved so emphatically to the left that on full shots , his right knee would sometimes appear to overtake his left knee on the follow-through. By running his knee at different speeds he was able to control the amount of force he expended in to the ball though impact. "

Run the right QUADRICEP at the TARGET!

Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by moehogan.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34216

  • Festus
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Me be thinkin' the camera angle is all messed up....the lens is in front of the ball...so what I be seeing in the green-dot GIF is the left hip is turning inside the back of the ball. Is there a lateral move to do that? Sure, but not very much and is married to setting the club properly during transition. :)
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34217

  • Drew Art
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Ponder the genius of going to a more diagonal stance with a left foot toed out a 1/4 turn. :woohoo:

Promotes a broader range of motion without adding the variability of a swaying center.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34220

  • phily
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Festus wrote:
Me be thinkin' the camera angle is all messed up....the lens is in front of the ball...so what I be seeing in the green-dot GIF is the left hip is turning inside the back of the ball. Is there a lateral move to do that? Sure, but not very much and is married to setting the club properly during transition. :)

ok so more like this (sorta)

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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34222

  • Martin Ayers
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phily wrote:
( while catching up on last couple of pages these were some thoughts running through my head)

re: Knudson lateral shift ... this old gif gives some reference -




Offers a different perspective.....
The dynamics here are just SO refined. I could watch it forever. The feeling of this really is that sensation of the swing being over before it starts. Watch the bounce down from the top at the finish. The slack was all wrung out of it. Pure ESSENCE of Hogan right here. The impeccable tempo and chain action all throughout...
100% agree....if there is no slack in the structure there's no need to hold on to anything to do with the clubs motion....cause it's unnecessary.

@Lane
The false premise is the ball BACK...Hogan AHEAD of the ball at impact...
Also the quote you put in other thread was FACE rolled open...that's NOT the arms flipped and rolled over as a loading process...
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34223

  • Martin Ayers
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Festus...
Your Earth and Moon motion analogy is fantastic....I don't have time to do it justice right now, but i would like to explore the concept with you.

For now I will just say that the 'forces' the mass of the club swinging around us place on us are most assuredly present. How anyone can possibly think that it's inert and the only forces are those we place on the club is beyond my ability to reason.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34225

  • Grady Dickens
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SvSv,

I have no problem with that much angle in a pose. In fact, I suspect I have more than that in a full swing. To be fair Hogan has gone to bow and I don't try to dothat bow move. The bowing will decrease angle.

Festus
I agree with you on the shoulders rotating inside the ball. I can't got here with Hoganregarding the hips. I don't dismiss lightly the thoughts of Knudson, who studied Hogan obsessively and certainly was one of the great ball strikers. My own view is that from a pure power standpoint lateral hip motion is a leak. Look at Jamiie for pure rotational power. But Hogan had something else in mind. The lateral motion gave him a longer, shallower path which made him more accurate. He stretched it, but never let his lower body get away from him. There are plenty of example on the site of guys that do that. And once he got forward he rotated so hard and resisted with hisrightleg such that his left hip was going back by impact. I like to think of him as getting forward so he can then pressure back and send the club past him.

When I am at my PCi think it would be interesting to put up Knudson again. There is a video of Knudson and Hogan that focuses on their hips and legs. It would be appropriate to study now.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34226

  • darryl tateishi
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You might try thinking of swinging INTO this going back... swing into a spring that has pre-tension going back.

Drew,

And what is that spring?

While Ben hogans appears compact/efficient, note he doesnt hold back on setting his collar bone deep. I've been trying this and I dont think I will think about shoulder turn again. I am flexible and with wide shoulders my scapula can fake a shoulder turn with very little collar bone movement.

Its all about coiling the collar bone, that has pretension going back. Thank you Drew and Lee Comeaux.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 2 months ago #34227

  • darryl tateishi
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ok so more like this (sorta)

phily,

another gem, thank you

I think you uncovered another benchmark we can compare ourselves against. At impact appears both hips and collar bones are about 45 degree open to club with butt end ahead of the ball/at impact.

Looking at shoulders is misleading because scapula have huge ROM. Collar bone rules,

i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg520/gifking/Hogan-Axis-x.gif
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