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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34286

  • Lane Holt
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Martin,

From Gerry--

Martin I forwarded your comments on the Gerry Hogan because you have made defamatory comments relating to the integrity of his work. You have obviously never heard of, or considered, professional courtesy, which is the sole reason why Gerry will not return to this forum, at this time, to respond to you directly.
In response to your suggestion that Ben Hogan "stayed behind the ball" you should be aware of another famous quote from the man himself when asked by a journalist if he would ever write another book. Hogan's response was;
"No, I doubt (or don't think) that I ever will. There are too many questions unanswered, it could take a thousand pages. For example, what's this business about staying behind the ball? I try to get as far past it as I can, as early as I can." (end quote). And every photo of Hogan just prior to impact clearly shows him doing exactly that.
Of all things relating to golf and the golf swing that he could have chosen to emphasise his point, why did Ben Hogan choose to use this particular example, staying behind the ball, as the most outstanding absurdity he could bring to mind, at the time?
I have also mentioned to Gerry your earlier condemnation of his teaching to pull the clubhead through the ball, via the butt end, where your teaching is to "throw the clubhead" . His comment to that was that you have obviously never head of Newton's Third Law of Motion (or that you fail to apply it simply because it directly contradicts what you choose to believe).
That Law dictates that, for ever action there must be a reaction that is both equal and opposite.
Put simply and briefly; the shaft is a lever. If you accelerate the head end at a greater rate than is (radially) proportional to the rotational speed of the body generally, by applying a force (via the arms/ hands) you MUST decelerate the opposite end of the lever, the butt end, held and acted upon by your hands, both equally and opposite.
Under that same Law; for all force applied in the creation of motion there MUST be a resistance that is both equal and opposite. If you are to apply a force with the hands/ arms to the clubhead via the shaft, there MUST be a resistance both equal and opposite. The sooner and faster you accelerate the clubhead, the sooner and fast you will decelerate the rotating body.
That is not a "Gerry Hogan" theory, that is a Law of Physics.

In summary Martin Ayers;
Ben Hogan most certainly did "fan open" the clubface, to use his own terminology. He has also long been regarded as the epitome of the flat plane swingers. To suggest that he didn't fan open the clubface as much as he could physically do so and swing as flat as he could is an utter absurdity. There is a vast store of photographic evidence showing, with crystal clarity, that he did, in both still and motion photography.
Ben Hogan did NOT make any attempt, of any kind, to "stay behind the ball". He did, in fact, do everything that was in his power to slide left and "stay in front of the clubhead".
Ben Hogan did NOT "throw the clubhead".
To use your own criticism as levelled against Gerry;
You have made three unfounded and professionally critical observations involving Gerry Hogan's work. You have offered written public comments that the rest of his work on Ben Hogan "must be called into question" accordingly.
The same now applies to you Sir!
Perhaps all who come into contact with you and your teachings and beliefs should now apply the exact same criteria to you and treat you, and everything that you say, with far greater caution, and perhaps the odd grain of salt.

You have made three claims against Gerry's findings, all of which can be proven, beyond all doubt, to be completely groundless and nothing more than a rather pathetic attempt to support your own 'findings and treachings' which are, in reality, directly opposed by the beliefs of Ben Hogan.
You couldn't fit your square pegs into the round holes so you have tried to reshape them accordingly.
Three strikes, you're OUT!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34287

  • Grady Dickens
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To do that I would need to get different gear...much more upright. More upright gear would not allow me to swing the clubhead through impact the way I want to do. I don't want DJ's swing. Don't like it at all. Really check this swing out. Then report back.

By the way, check out the Ryder Cup footage that is the video of the day on the dirt. Add Dr. Cary M. to the list of tall guys that deal with being tall with knee flex. I should have added him to my list yesterday. The knee flex adds great pressure into the ground, which can be captured as speed through impact if you learn how to convert that vertical pressure to horizontal pressure. There is a risk you just dip under it, which is what I did as a kid using a lot of knee flex. Now I know you have to switch to horizontal, and really move. Really an athletic, powerful thing. Check one for John on this point.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34288

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Grady Dickens wrote:
To do that I would need to get different gear...much more upright. More upright gear would not allow me to swing the clubhead through impact the way I want to do. I don't want DJ's swing. Don't like it at all. Really check this swing out. Then report back.

By the way, check out the Ryder Cup footage that is the video of the day on the dirt. Add Dr. Cary M. to the list of tall guys that deal with being tall with knee flex. I should have added him to my list yesterday. The knee flex adds great pressure into the ground, which can be captured as speed through impact if you learn how to convert that vertical pressure to horizontal pressure. There is a risk you just dip under it, which is what I did as a kid using a lot of knee flex. Now I know you have to switch to horizontal, and really move. Really an athletic, powerful thing. Check one for John on this point.

No Grady, that's not what I meant. Sorry for not making myself clear.

Your club lie angle would be flatter with what I'm saying.

You really bend down at the waist, and you really hang your arms straight down from your shoulder sockets towards the ground, and your L wrist should be fully uncocked. And I mean really, truly fully uncocked...but the clubhead is just brushing the ground/grass very slightly, almost hanging...
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34289

  • Grady Dickens
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@Lane,

When I saw that comment from Martin I said "oh no." Martin feels very strongly about his philosophy, but there is no place for that statement.

Before things get out of hand, I am going to offer some thoughts on how they both could be right. First on fanning it open, Hogan said it was his intent to do it just as Gerry noted. But actual video of him doing it, at least in the takeaway is inconclusive. My view is he eventually got it open, but not immediately for several reasons: (1) weak right hand grip caused his right elbow to point more to his left arm than out toward the ball and that makes fanning it early more difficult to do, (2) forward press with body...Hogan rocked his body a bit before starting back and that caused a bit of drag loading, I.e. the grip moved before the clubhead, and (3) speed...Hogan swung fast...as I said above Drew's clip "reminded" me of this..and that speed creates momentum so actions upon it are delayed.

Now, on the issue of lateral slide, I have a couple thoughts. I don't think Martin suggests that Hogan doesn't move laterally, but perhaps less than is commonly believed. I don't have a dog in this hunt, but believe there is harm in emphasizing either side of the debate. I think there is a right amount for each golfer based on the golfer's build, the way they setup and how fast they swing. The last point is what I would emphasize here. Again thanks to Drew for posting that clip. The speed with which Hogan swung is an obvious fact, but one I had not focused on in a long while. As I noted above a swinging club has momentum, and the move laterally by Hogan was in response to that. I think Martin would agree with that. But I would agree with Gerry that it was a big lateral shift. But not too big for the reasons I posted on the subject a few pages ago, but big compared to other championship caliber golfers.
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by Grady Dickens.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34290

  • phily
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objective vs subjective

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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34291

  • 1lovegolf24
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While I will refrain from commenting on some past comments made here wrt Gerry Hogan's work, since there are two side to every story, I would like to offer a vote of confidence to Gerry Hogan and his work.

What I would like to leave on the table, as I have read Gerry's book, is that he believes in controlling the swing with the head and the hands and let the rest of the swing fall into place. Also, whether you agree or not, Mr. Hogan only deals in facts.

He has truely, and simply, boiled the swing down to the one thing. :) I truely don't see why the golf swing cannot be taught more from this perspective, observing just two basic priciples.

What does this have to do with Ben Hogan? Well, if you read the first few pages of this thread and a few of the last, with the exception of Grady's exciting journey, the one thing I have searched for, believe in, is the mastery of the head and the hands, and is exactly what I believe Hogan did, and what Gerry Hogan has offered as the two keys to controlling the entire swing motion. :)

Furthermore, one of the two priciples that Gerry speaks of, involves being able to master, "dropping into the slot", as Ben Hogan , called it.

The point here, is not who is right or wrong, but more about what we choose to believe in. For me, Ben Hogan provided the how, and alot of the why, in simple basics, in Five Lessons and Gerry Hogan provided the why, or the facts, in "The Hogan Manual of Human Performance" along with the how, boiled down to the mastery of two simple things. The Head and the Hands. :)

Good Luck and Keep Diggin B) , I know I will. ;)

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34292

  • Grady Dickens
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@Mark,

Everything after the first sentence in your post was a comment in the debate. You side with Gerry, and that is okay, but please just be upfront about it.

As for as 5L I can't read it and conclude it is all about the hands. The hands are important, but IMO Hogan made quite clear his motor is the pivot.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34293

  • Festus
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Hope Gerry comes aboard to trade chops with the crew instead of using a second party. Why not stand up for what you believe in?

Ben Hogan did both...he was ahead of the club, but behind the ball at the same time by being inside the back of it to the fullest extent possible.

Simple concept really in my mind. Here's a picture.

Consider the different size balls each having one discrete point, but the relative sizes would force a different intent for propulsion. I seriously doubt anyone would want to get past a ball if it is the size of ball #1. Just the opposite, you would have to get out of the way of the size #1 ball blocking you. One COULD get ahead of ball #4, but why would one want to......try that same intent with ball #1 and see what you do.....good luck with that one.

Nice picture Phily :) ....how do you determine the vanishing point on it.

ball_2012-07-01.jpg
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by Festus.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34294

  • Cy
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Grady Dickens wrote:
@Lane,

When I saw that comment from Martin I said "oh no." Martin feels very strongly about his philosophy, but there is no place for that statement.

Before things get out of hand, I am going to offer some thoughts on how they both could be right.


Good Grady, they both could be right or wrong. Depends on your reference point in terms of location or "feel"!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34295

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Grady Dickens wrote:

The hands are important, but IMO Hogan made quite clear his motor is the pivot.

True. The main engine of ANY swing has been the pivot since the first "golfer" hit a "ball" with a stick.
The swing comes in infinite flavors and variation but the main theme and the foundation of the swing has always been a balanced pivot.

Without a good pivot there is not much power in the arms and hands. I know of only two teachers who were very explicit about the pivot. George Knudson was one of them.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34296

  • phily
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This is the wonderful thing about golf discussions / debates ... the incredibly subjective nature of the discussions, descriptions, context, and the swing itself precludes any possibility of standardized verification. Can't think of many posts / videos / books here or elsewhere that aren't attempting to interpret Ben Hogans swing or words.

If we are going to set a precedent of "I'm telling on you, retract that or else" rather than "Here's my rebuttal / argument" or "Not sure I follow you" when someone is clearly voicing an opinion based on contextual semantics we are only going dampen the spirit of these discussions and most likely never hear the 'fine points' of others arguments. I think that everyone keeps coming back / benefits / learns more because it's all accepted & understood as opinion, allowing a panorama & leaving room for everyone - (even me).
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34297

  • phily
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Festus wrote:
... Phily ....how did you determine the vanishing point on it.

Fest,

best I could do is gauge typical ball placement off left heel from face-on photos / vids / book and strike line from estimated point off heel to ball. at best it's an average but I'm comfy with it. (in my opinion)*



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Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by phily.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34298

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wait a minute.... Festus, were you trying to say my vanishing point line is wrong?

Grady, send me a PM I want to know what you charge for by the hour.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34299

  • Festus
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No Phily, not at all. I tried a Paint drawing once and got cornfused about where the vanishing point would go given the location of the camera eye and where that point would be placed behind him. So I gave up :lol: Too hard for my aged head to figure out. But I think it would be important....anyhoo, I liked it.

Also liked your comments about "allowing a panorama", so how about this from the Life of Festus, chapter 1, titled What Ground?

Chapter Anecdote:


In 1955, before the U. S. Open at Olympic, a shipment of balls was placed at his locker. One by one he removed each ball from it's carton and peered at it through a magnifying glass. Every so often he threw one of the new balls into his shag bag. Harvie Ward who won the U. S. Amateur that year shook his head. "Excuse me Ben he said, but why are you throwing those new balls away? "Some of them," he replied, "have a little too much paint in the dimples."

Aerodynamics? Sure, BUT also means every ball is actually teed up at least minimally by .01 inches, or whatever the depth of the dimple is. We should be hitting up on a ball which we think is on the ground, but is not really, and there is only one way to do that. The ball is inside the dimples. Too much paint would invite the possibility of the ball on the fairway actually ending up on the dimple with too much paint thus requiring one to hit down.

That's enough for now.. :laugh:
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by Festus.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34302

  • Steve P
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Grady Dickens wrote:
Alright guys, we have had a fun couple of days dissecting my swing. I did consider all of your comments. Some I rejected and some I tried. I went to the range yesterday, with the intent to incorporate these things:

1. Swing faster with less arm travel on BS. The clip Drew posted, and comment from BHSP that it doesn't look like I rip it like Ben.

2. Steeper club in BS. From SVSV and Steve P (our most interesting man).

3. Right quad pop. MH.

4. More knee flex and something post impact. John Erickson. I can't disclose the later, since that is John's IP, but I have been working on this for a week or so. I think I made some progress here if you look at the left shoulder post impact. No longer bunched a bit when the club reappears in the follow thru. Shoulder rotation is a bit flater...sorry SVSV.

I downloaded this to my ipad so the quality isn't great. If anyone cares to see better quality I can download to my PC. That would also allow me to do it in slomo.

SVSV I did a video of posing at delivery with a bowed wrist and can pm that to you if you wish. However, I think this swing should answer your question. If you freeze it when my arms get even with the ball you will see the clubhead is still both above and inside my hands. The additional speed in transition and addition of knee flex delayed release a bit so it increased my retention of lag big time. There is a lot of load here, and it took all of my to get it back. But the power was ridiculous. I cracked my favorite persimmon driver in this range session. Damn. Getting back to that three iron. Freeze frame post impact, what I would call p4. Love it.

The first video is my version of a concentration drill.

Thanks for all the comments, and interested what you guys see here. I am very encouraged, but sad about my persimmon driver.




Nice.

I would be curious to see what things would look like if you setup and swung from where you were at 33 sec mark-before you leaned a bit and moved the hands out to the ball. In other words setup closer to the ball a hair more upright...
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34305

  • Martin Ayers
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Lane Holt wrote:
Martin,

From Gerry--

Martin I forwarded your comments on the Gerry Hogan because you have made defamatory comments relating to the integrity of his work. You have obviously never heard of, or considered, professional courtesy, which is the sole reason why Gerry will not return to this forum, at this time, to respond to you directly.
I tried talking to Gerry about Ben Hogan on the phone early last year, can't get a word in with him of your own ideas.....we had a moment of heated exchange about the idea of the backswing....Gerry's idea that I heard from his own mouth was that Ben Hogan rolled 'everything' to get the right palm up to the sky with the left arm on top....my response to that caused the first 'argument'....the second and final one when he sent me a picture of Hogan where the camera was way down the target line looking back at Hogan and this was the evidence Gerry used to show Hogan in front of the ball....at that point any further discussion was deemed by both parties to be a waste of time....so we went back to talking about the shaft, which I have said numerous times is a VERY good shaft.

In response to your suggestion that Ben Hogan "stayed behind the ball" you should be aware of another famous quote from the man himself when asked by a journalist if he would ever write another book. Hogan's response was;
"No, I doubt (or don't think) that I ever will. There are too many questions unanswered, it could take a thousand pages. For example, what's this business about staying behind the ball? I try to get as far past it as I can, as early as I can." (end quote). And every photo of Hogan just prior to impact clearly shows him doing exactly that.
Of all things relating to golf and the golf swing that he could have chosen to emphasise his point, why did Ben Hogan choose to use this particular example, staying behind the ball, as the most outstanding absurdity he could bring to mind, at the time?

I teach staying ahead of the ball in rotation....particularly of the lower body.....this picture clearly shows what I referred to as the absurdity of getting ahead of the ball AND playing the ball back....both of which comments I stand by.


SO WHERE IS EVERY PHOTO OF HOGAN SHOWING HIM PAST THE BALL WITH THE BALL BACK?
I have also mentioned to Gerry your earlier condemnation of his teaching to pull the clubhead through the ball, via the butt end, where your teaching is to "throw the clubhead" . His comment to that was that you have obviously never head of Newton's Third Law of Motion (or that you fail to apply it simply because it directly contradicts what you choose to believe).
That Law dictates that, for ever action there must be a reaction that is both equal and opposite.
Put simply and briefly; the shaft is a lever. If you accelerate the head end at a greater rate than is (radially) proportional to the rotational speed of the body generally, by applying a force (via the arms/ hands) you MUST decelerate the opposite end of the lever, the butt end, held and acted upon by your hands, both equally and opposite.
Under that same Law; for all force applied in the creation of motion there MUST be a resistance that is both equal and opposite. If you are to apply a force with the hands/ arms to the clubhead via the shaft, there MUST be a resistance both equal and opposite. The sooner and faster you accelerate the clubhead, the sooner and fast you will decelerate the rotating body.
That is not a "Gerry Hogan" theory, that is a Law of Physics.
That's all perfectly wonderful Lane...BUT I DONT TEACH THROWING THE CLUBHEAD...so this entire back and forth between mentor and sycophantic follower was a waste of energy
In summary Martin Ayers;
Ben Hogan most certainly did "fan open" the clubface, to use his own terminology. He has also long been regarded as the epitome of the flat plane swingers. To suggest that he didn't fan open the clubface as much as he could physically do so and swing as flat as he could is an utter absurdity. There is a vast store of photographic evidence showing, with crystal clarity, that he did, in both still and motion photography.
Ben Hogan did NOT make any attempt, of any kind, to "stay behind the ball". He did, in fact, do everything that was in his power to slide left and "stay in front of the clubhead".
Ben Hogan did NOT "throw the clubhead".
To use your own criticism as levelled against Gerry;
You have made three unfounded and professionally critical observations involving Gerry Hogan's work. You have offered written public comments that the rest of his work on Ben Hogan "must be called into question" accordingly.
The same now applies to you Sir!
Perhaps all who come into contact with you and your teachings and beliefs should now apply the exact same criteria to you and treat you, and everything that you say, with far greater caution, and perhaps the odd grain of salt.

You have made three claims against Gerry's findings, all of which can be proven, beyond all doubt, to be completely groundless and nothing more than a rather pathetic attempt to support your own 'findings and treachings' which are, in reality, directly opposed by the beliefs of Ben Hogan.
You couldn't fit your square pegs into the round holes so you have tried to reshape them accordingly.
Three strikes, you're OUT!
I tell you what Lane...I'm going to reply to SVSV's comments re the left arm etc...shortly. I never said he didn't "open the CLUB FACE as far and as fast as he can" I called into question the notion of being in front of a ball that was in back of the stance....I still stand by my comments that that is a false premise...please provide SAID evidence of a photographic and video nature.
I think that false premise led Gerry to other conclusions that don't gel at all with the 'evidence' either of which one of them is the rolling of the left arm on top of the right I GOT THAT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH AND IT'S MY BELIEF THAT THIS IS AN ABSURD NOTION GIVEN THE HUGE AMOUNT OF FOOTAGE WE HAVE THAT BELIES IT. When I attempted to discuss MY thoughts with Gerry on it...he didn't have the simple courtesy to hear me out, so don't talk to me about professional courtesy....you can't even be bothered....just like him...to even understand what someone is saying before attempting to shoot it down


Now as to what I really do teach....which clearly Lane you haven't been paying attention or you would never think I teach to throw the club head at the ball FFS......using the very same law that Gerry loves to quote...IF YOU WANT THE REACTION TO BE THE CLUB BEING LED BY THE HANDS THEN YOU BEST NOT ROLL IT ALL AROUND YOU AS THE ACTION....YOU GET THE EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION TO THAT...A BIG ROLLING MESS THAT YOU THEN HAVE TO MANAGE BY PULLING THE HANDLE LEFT OF YOU....The club comes out of transition the opposite way it goes in...I see that in EVERY player.

The 3 biggest problems I help people overcome, which gets them hitting the ball further and with greater control are 1) over-rotation in the direction of the swing...which action causes unwanted reactions of stalling things out and NOT keeping pace with the club..2) Going too far forward 3) playing the ball too far back which causes them to have to AIM further to their right in terms of their body's rotation. PEOPLES LEVEL OF CLEARANCE IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THEIR LOCATION TO THE BALL. THE FURTHER YOU GET AHEAD OF IT THE LESS YOU CAN CLEAR AND STILL HAVE IT BE ANATOMICALLY POSSIBLE TO STRIKE THE BALL. THE BEST PLAYERS IN HISTORY ARE THE MOST CLEARED TOWARD FACING THE TARGET WITH THEIR ENTIRE MAIN BODY....WHICH IS WHAT LEADING THE CLUB IS ALL ABOUT. OUR ANGLE OF ATTACK IS TIED TO ALL OF THIS. IF YOU ARE BEHIND THE BALL IN MASS, BUT LEADING IT IN TERMS OF ROTATION THE MOST AND YOU STRIKE THE BALL ON A DOWNWARD BLOW ENSURING THE CLUB IS STILL TRAVELING OUT...THE BEHIND THE BALL BUT AIMED IN FRONT OF IT MEANS YOU HAVE IT TRAPPED AT A SINGLE POINT....NO NEED FOR ANY SIDE TO SIDE PULLING OR DRAGGING. THAT SINGLE POINT IS WHERE ALL THE ENERGY GOES...AS IT HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE.

If you want to debate me on these points welcome to the game...LOL 3 strikes I'm out...give me a break.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34306

  • Festus
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First we have Hogan on a beach in Florida, now we have Grady on Texas harshland.

I like the practice drill a ton Grady. I do that kind of work when things go off kilter just to get reacquainted with a few things within time/motion.

I used to do that also with complicated drum parts. It is easy to cover mistakes going fast, a lot harder to do in slow time while still keeping timing-dynamics intact.

Good stuff. :)
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by Festus.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34309

Festus wrote:
First we have Hogan on a beach in Florida, now we have Grady on Texas harshland.

Whatchu talkin' about Willis? That's right plush for Texas. If you want plusher you have to go where the skeeters might just carry you off, or drain you before you can finish the front 9.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34310

  • JesseV
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Whether Gerry Hogan takes his toys and goes home won't affect me one wit. In fact I've read some of his stuff and I don't care for the man. Using pseudo intellectual crud to try and control a thread and force folks in to believing what he believes is beyond lunacy to me. Paraphrasing here - You can't reply until you think about what I say and you agree with me. What a crock!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34311

  • svsvincenzo
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Martin Ayers wrote:

...IF YOU WANT THE REACTION TO BE THE CLUB BEING LED BY THE HANDS THEN YOU BEST NOT ROLL IT ALL AROUND YOU AS THE ACTION....YOU GET THE EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION TO THAT...A BIG ROLLING MESS THAT YOU THEN HAVE TO MANAGE BY PULLING THE HANDLE LEFT OF YOU....The club comes out of transition the opposite way it goes in...I see that in EVERY player.

@Martin

IMHO, that is not true. In itself alone, that may be true, but there are other things going on in Hogan's swing such as those I mentioned already (e.g., the grip, vertical shoulder turn, and R armpit connection.) What you said is IMO true only if you have little #3 accum.

Hogan clearly has lots of #3 as his L arm is low relative to his body/torso/shoulders (not the ground). If you Hogan didn't roll or fan his L arm and clubface (L flying wedge) open as much as possible, he would always hit it out to in and won't get to elbow plane. If you have low L arm relative to your shoulders and you don't roll or fan the L flying wedge open a lot, your shaft will end up across the line on top and/or you will hit your back/shoulders/head.

Now, imagine turning your shoulders flat and level relative to the ground, and then have a low L arm relative to your shoulders, and then roll or fan the L flying wedge, and then retract your R elbow back towards the side of the torso as when you lose the R armpit connection...the result will be what you're saying. In this case, what you're saying is true. Add to that a strong grip, and the results will be more obvious.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34314

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havent participated in this thread in awhile but its getting more and more soap opera kinda entertaining or its me getting sad depending how you look at it. in all fairness Gerry Hogan is not completely unreasonable, its just it takes alot of effort and filtering his attitude and lack of basic communication skills to get him to a point to admit he made a mistake however small that mistake might be and then it doesnt really worth the effort. i dont think of him as a lunatic or crock tho. as far as his swing mechanics go he developed something that people can have success with but the only thing he has in common with Ben Hogan is the name because Gerry swing mechanics have very little common with Ben (no pun) and it would be apparent to anybody just by watching his swing frame by frame (there is one in a cheesy commercial on youtube for those interested) and i'm not talking about the look i'm talking swing mechanics. it is also clear from the excerpts from that book of his that were posted online where he pretty much telling you that Ben Hogan didnt really know what he was talking about (not a quote but you get this idea reading it) when he discussed his own swing and then goes on to contradict him and prove why he was wrong all while looking at it from his own swing mechanics pov which, see above, are as sound as they might be, are also irrelevant as far as Ben Hogan swing mechanics concerned.
JesseV wrote:
Whether Gerry Hogan takes his toys and goes home won't affect me one wit. In fact I've read some of his stuff and I don't care for the man. Using pseudo intellectual crud to try and control a thread and force folks in to believing what he believes is beyond lunacy to me. Paraphrasing here - You can't reply until you think about what I say and you agree with me. What a crock!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34315

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You're right Philly - one inch will make little difference. It would require a much larger equipment change at setup to account for the significant difference in builds.

Plenty of good moves in Grady's motion but these still photo comparisons are disingenous. At speed I just don't see Hogan. A significantly more vertical shoulder move (due to body dimensions and equipment) and what appears to be a muscular move of the club post impact. That overall movement will work but why we try and compare it to Hogan and declare similarities is beyond me. Perhaps the acid test for any Hogan swing comparison is to replace 2:49 of one's slo-mo into this vid and see how it plays out

I refuse to be the guinea pig. :)






Rob
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34317

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Rob wrote:
You're right Philly - one inch will make little difference. It would require a much larger equipment change at setup to account for the significant difference in builds.

Plenty of good moves in Grady's motion but these still photo comparisons are disingenous. At speed I just don't see Hogan. A significantly more vertical shoulder move (due to body dimensions and equipment) and what appears to be a muscular move of the club post impact. That overall movement will work but why we try and compare it to Hogan and declare similarities is beyond me. Perhaps the acid test for any Hogan swing comparison is to replace 2:49 of one's slo-mo into this vid and see how it plays out

I refuse to be the guinea pig. :)






Rob

Only a golfer of same height as Hogan can be a possible copy. With Hogan's gorilla/longer arms, that golfer gotta be even smaller. Unless of course you increase the length of the clubs accordingly.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34320

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Rob wrote:
Plenty of good moves in Grady's motion but these still photo comparisons are disingenous. At speed I just don't see Hogan. A significantly more vertical shoulder move (due to body dimensions and equipment) and what appears to be a muscular move of the club post impact. That overall movement will work but why we try and compare it to Hogan and declare similarities is beyond me. Perhaps the acid test for any Hogan swing comparison is to replace 2:49 of one's slo-mo into this vid and see how it plays out.
I did a side by side gif using this same vid with Grady where I thought he looked quite good, but don't think Grady was that pleased with it, so I'll just leave a link if it's ok.

secretinthedirt.com/index.php/forum/155-...=25&start=6050#32542 (bottom of page)
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 2 years 1 month ago #34322

  • Grady Dickens
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@Rob,

I post my swing a lot here because I am after Hogan dynamics, and value impute from at least some of my fellow dieters. Based on the private messages I get here I think most enjoy observing my journey, and I hope I am helping others along the way. By Hogan dynamics I don't necessarily want to copy Hogan, but I want the essence of his swing. While I love that Amazing Grace video Hogan was well into his 60s there. That swing is not the swing that won majors. I completely disagree that competitive Hogan's swing was not muscular. Even though well past his prime watch the Shell video. Virtually every swing is a full body workout. If you disagree I would be glad to post examples.
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