Secret In The Dirt - Golf's Greatest Social Network

1lovegolf24 wrote:



I know that in other sports they teach both head and eye movement to relay the intended direction of travel/movement to the nervous system. As you know there is a lot of advice concerning keeping the head still, look at the ball etc. But from what I've read in studies from various sports is that the distance to the object were hitting is the important factor. This distance doesn't have to be static, it can be a moving point. As long as the arc or path is consistent then our various systems can calculate the changing distance as we get nearer to the object.

As we see predominantly in golf though, Part of the player remains at a fairly static distance.

I look at it this way, the swing your performing is based on reactions. You have an intention to hit the ball and when you move off the ball, your giving your body all the information it needs to let your reactions take over and complete the task. Those reactions have been fine tuned since you took your 1st breath, step, baseball swing, brushing a fly away from your face etc. And there is no doubt that it can work.

Now a "Static Point" swing (for want of a better name) just does the opposite, the body part that remains a fixed distance is an anchor point for the swing. We still use our reactions (hopefully) to make a good swing.

But there are problems with both methods and especially if they mix, a static point swing that breaks down and the anchor is lost. A reaction swing that becomes stalled at some point, both swings rely on making a good move.

Yesterday I was having a practice round with a friend, 1 shot would be pure and then the next would be just off, just not quite flush. We both use a similar static point swing and where talking about his motion. I was looking for what was causing the problem, he has a great swing and his rotation is nice and tight. A few holes later I noticed a very small head/eye movement at the start of his backswing, almost a twitch.

Because he hadn't flushed the previous shot, he was putting in a little too much effort which led to this twitch. I mentioned it and he began to focus his eyes more, fixating his vision. This solved the issue, neither of us try to keep our head still. The eyes on the other hand are a different matter, that vision fixation is a major part of the distance calculation system that our body uses.

Again though the above example is for a static swing, your method could use this or the more "Look and Lock" method we see with some baseball pitchers. the head turns away from the target/object and then as the motion turns to the target. The head turns and the eyes lock on as the throw begins.

Which method is correct?
Neither
Which method is incorrect?
Neither

The swing is only incorrect if it doesn't suit the players purpose, with enough practice we can do almost anything. Even swapping hands mid swing

Dr. Smith,

It has been awhile since I have looked for any new stuff from Keerns at wrx. To much arguing probably and some insecurity issues or fear that someone may actually have an easy and fun way to swing a golf club.

We'll talk more later. Looking forward to golfing and discussing some things with you .

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

DaveJaVu wrote:




DJV

Thanks for the post.

To be honest with you, I am not trying to convert anyone, since , as you said, that is insane. However, what I am trying to do is offer what I have learned, not just from myself, but others that think along the same lines. I am trying to attract others that may be thinking the same thing, or interested in what some of the greats taught.

Take Mehlhorn for example , and his book "Golf Secrets Exposed". "His theme, and I am quoting from the book, was using naturalness of movement". End quote. Continuing from the book, "He said we move the same way whether we throw a ball of hit it, swing an ax or grass whip, so why should golf be any different?" End quote.

I believed these things before I ever had the chance to talk to Bobby Shave, who spent 20 yrs, and almost everyday, spending time with Mehlhorn. He co wrote the book, btw . I have had conversations with Mr. Shave and explained my thoughts on the swing, etc, and new right then and there, that was my path.

There have been others that I have also seen naturalness in too. For instance, Moe's R hand grip, Lee Comeaux's R hand grip, and to a certain extent, Hogan's, based on how far on top of the shaft he places it. If you ever look closely to Hogan's L hand big nuckle alignment, after the follow through, you could swear, his L thumb was not where it was at address. However, we know his thumbs were extremely flexible and he may have figured something out.

This is the natural way to hold any implement or tool. Especially a heavy one.

The grip is the key, and the most important to execute naturally. Without natural motion, and feel, instincts don't have a chance. They get confused with what they are designed to do for us. Of course, i am unable to prove this, but the point is, the GRIP MUST BE NATURAL.

For example, and again, this is from Mehlhorn, I quote;

"When my students used a grass whip they got where they did'nt need me any more. That's how good their timming got."

So, how do we grip a grass whip. Certainly not like Vardon, Hogan, etc. Why? That is why Lee Comeaux said the golf world is not ready for the type of release he uses.IMO, it wont really work to it's full, natural potential, unless the R hand grip is natural. That may be one thing Hogan thought where we should reverse every natural instint. I dissagree, but that is just me.

Anyway, I am starting to ramble, as usuall, but you get the point, I think.

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Interesting thoughts there Mark,

What would happen if the Right hand grip was not fully formed, until the club was in the final stages of getting to the top. The intention is in place that the Right hand will make a particular motion, the grip for the downswing may possibly only be truly felt moments before the downswing happens. So if someone took advantage of that, would it allow them to consistantly always have the right hand in the right place.

Just theorizing and fishing

DJV,

You posted,

"Interesting thoughts there Mark,

What would happen if the Right hand grip was not fully formed, until the club was in the final stages of getting to the top. The intention is in place that the Right hand will make a particular motion, the grip for the downswing may possibly only be truly felt moments before the downswing happens. So if someone took advantage of that, would it allow them to consistantly always have the right hand in the right place.

Just theorizing and fishing

Whether you are fishing, implying, offering, I will offer this in reply. Vardon had one of the lightest grips advisable and for the exact same reasons you offer Natural dynamics. IMO.

Bobby Jones also thought this, advocating saving the right hand until it was time to use it, as well as Mehlhorn going as far as advocating hitting with just the forefinger and thumbs on the first few shots of a round and the fingers must be dynamic.

I won't pretend to fully understand their thinking, but maybe someone else can explain it.

I will say this, even when swinging an axe, the R hand is merely sliding on the shaft until moments before impact. , but when it comes to go time, the right hand had better be ready.


As I said before, maybe someone can offer a better reply of the grip and it's purpose and dynamics. Something tells me you have something up your sleeve?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

"Where do general's keep their Army's ?"
"Up their Sleevie's" An oldie but a goodie

Many golfers, instructor's have mentioned light grip pressure. We also know that an incorrect grip can lead to many swing faults. If the hands are "locked" onto the grip at setup then everything must be perfectly correct in order for the the hands to return to the impact area in exactly the right position.

So is it easier to setup perfectly each time, hit the exact same top slot with with the hands welded to the club. Make an absolutely perfect downswing and strike the ball the same way every time. Or should we build something into our swing to create a "margin for error"?

That Margin for error can take the form of a "slightly variable" right hand grip. Slightly variable meaning applying the correct amount of pressure in the correct part of the hand on the correct part of the grip at the correct time. It would just take a bit of experimentation and trust that the reflex's will do their job.

"Another reason for that clip"

DaveJaVu wrote:




DJV,

Thanks for the reply.

"Where does a General's real power come from? His privates! Not an oldie, and probably not a goodie, but , oh well.

Yes many instructors advocate a light grip and many instructors advocate certain grips. Unfortunately, we get little explanation as to why they work?

My point here and question here is the same as yours. I believe what you are getting at is the key to a sucessfull working grip, but why stop there? Why don't we build something into all aspects of our swings to create a margin for error?

Now you may see where I am going with this

The way I see it, we don't have to build something into our swing. It is already there, but people seem hell bent on manufacturinf every little part of the swing.

If we trust natural, feel, observe it, it will all make sense, and the execution will not only be easier, but repeatable.


Take weight transfer, and ground forces, which seems to be a hot topic.We can observe them, but only as they happen naturally. The reason being is that this is the built in allowance for margin of error. We never make the same swing and at any time we may have more weight here one swing and totally opposite the next.

Furthermore, we cannot confuse weight shift and pressure. Two different things. pressures are more of a balance mechanism than a means of consciously creating leverage. Not necessary or natural, IMO.

The pressures we feel in the swings are, again, effects, not causes. Just reflexes


On a side note, and most don't know the history behind this, but many have tried to choose between left and right , push and pull and many have tried to do both. Most will eventually choose. However, those that have tried, have admitted to not finding the key. I dissagree, but that is another conversation..........or is it?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

DaveJaVu wrote:


OK Dave, let's theorize!

What is the best and optimal way of controlling a golf club during a swing?

A. Hands
B. wrists
C. Shoulders
D. Torso
E. Hips
F. Legs
G. Feet
H. Pivot
I. CF
J. DOCF
K. ABS
L. Sequence
M. SPC
N. 5L
O. Your favorite swing method
P. Some of the above together
Q. None of the above
R. I have no idea!

Please post your answers.
P.S. All swing gurus are encouraged to participate!

[quote="1lovegolf24" post=36428]DaveJaVu wrote:


Why choose between left and right when we can use them both, we just need to use a swing where they are not competing for total control.

For myself:

P. Some of the above which = O. My favorite swing method (my own0

Cy wrote:



Cy,

I will choose, Q. None of the above.


Mark, 1lovegolf24

Cy,

I think you may not get many participants to your survey, mostly becuase everything on the list is taught, but exist in a natural swing motion. One that we all can do, naturally without thinking about any of them.

Control is such a strong word, but if we must, the only thing worthy of controling the club, is BALANCE, and from where I'm sitting , and in all my years and experience in just about every sport I could try, balance cannot be taught. I t must be felt

Thanks Cy,

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Cy,

Your not alone and if my support of your efforts offend some. So be it. I am not here to argue with anyone or to prove any points. I am only offering what I believe in and trust to work for me.

Here is some more support of what you keep trying to get across to some.

As you know Mehlhorn was a big believer in simplicity of motion and thought.

Shawn Clement is another and in this video, he explains why and demonstrates why also.



Good Luck and no hard feelings to anyone who disagrees or travels a different path. I mean that.



Mark, 1lovegolf24

Played in the golf clubs comp today with a former Cricket player, he was a guest of a mate of mine. I was pretty impressed with his swing and the power he produced. I know it's not all about power, but this guy laid it down at the correct time. I would say that he was 1 of, if not the longest iron player I have ever seen.

I asked him what cricket stroke was the most similar to the golf swing, he answered that he had recently been thinking about this and he finally realized which stroke was the closest. His years playing cricket had been hampering his game, he was thinking that golf was all about swinging to the target. This led him to be on the tight rope of coming over the top, if he was just right he was fine, but if off he would cut the ball a little. After working with a Pro he had the light bulb moment which made him realize, that he should be swinging similar to hitting a cricket shot out over the left side boundary (Left Field).

So his "natural swing" based on 30+ years of cricket prevented his golf swing from maturing. A bit of prodding in the right direction and it allowed him to use his "Cricket Power & Athletic'ness" to help produce the right swing. You could say that he built his golf swing on top of the foundations of his cricket swing, but not that his years of cricket allowed him to naturally play golf. The swing needed to be built, but he had a great advantage because of his physical capabilities.

My guess - it is the tounge. No- the knees- the elbows? Could it be the ears? I give up!
Is this a question for first or second graders? These questions certainly do challenge ones mental capacity!
I eagerly await the correct answer !



Lane

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Hi Mark,

I think you need to develop some control over the clubface and the force that you apply to the ball. Balance and rhythm is definitely play a key role. But a sense for the force in terms of direction and magnitude is needed. You could do it around the green, backyard, or living room.

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Thanks Mark for your support. I appreciate it. I believe the simpler your action the better. Sometimes golf is not easy even for the pros. One day they shoot 62 and the next day 72 and they can't figure it out why their swings are a little off? And that is common in pro golf!

Cy wrote:


Hmm.... CY, what you think is balance in golf swing?

Cy wrote:




Cy,

If I may expand my thoughts wrt, to my answer. Balance is achived through feel. The body must balance weight in order to efficiently move it. Any added weight, whether it is being moved, swing or thrown, must also be balanced.

Therfore, the club is just weight, felt through pressure exurted on hands by the implement or object being held, , that we seek first to balance, then move, (swing, throw) in a controlled ( balanced), efficient,(powerul )manner.

For example, if we close our eyes, and someone puts a handle, with weight at the end, in our hands, can we distinguish the length of the shaft? it could be a 1 ft. long handle with 3 lbs at the end of it, or it may be a 4 ft long shaft with 1.5 puonds at the end. my point is, the hands must first, instinctively balance the club in order to control the club.

The next step, if I may, would be to balance the hitting surface, (sweet spot) dynamically through a rhythmic swing motion, to a specific target, ie the ball. Again, this is all done by feel, in order to balance the swing motion.

A great way to do this is a grass whip, as Mehlhorn prescribes. Once we begin the swing the weight, all the things on your list will manifest themselves automatically, such as the grip, stance, and all the feels and criteria of balance will be felt, naturally, not through thought, but feel.

We can even do this with a club in our hands, and swing it while walking forward and actually hit the ball with this motion. As I have and will continue to repeat, I have no problems with anyone wishing to travel whatever path they feel is right for them. This is my ultimate choice of path to uderstanding and executing my swing motion/golf swing motion, as well as owning my swing motion.

I am sure you know all this already, and much more, but I was trying to give a better answer than the short one I gave.


I appreciate your time and efforts, not only here, but at the Dirt. It's not easy. Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Cy,

I apologize for giving such a drabble filled answer, and monologue, instead of being straight forward with my amswer.

So please accept my apology and allow me to offer a more simplified answer.

"THE HEAD". It is the"Ultimate "Controller" of a balanced motion, or a balanced motion that gives us"Control".

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Are golf and life the same? When will be our last chance to experience either? If we knewthe answer to either, what would we spend those last moments doing?

Balance, in golf, as in life, is very important, so maybe sometimes we can all take a step back and realize, we all love golf and we should appreciate that gift. It may not be there tomorrow.

Just a thought and something that give us a little perspective as we go about our agendas here at the Dirt.





Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Thanks Mark. It is all in "THE HEAD"! You need to have a balanced head!

Cy wrote,


"Thanks Mark. It is all in "THE HEAD"! You need to have a balanced head! "


You got me Cy.


Now, which head?

Mark, 1lovegolf24

I began doing alot of thinking back to the days of throwing the discus and shot put I did in Jr. and High School, trying to remember and or observe the relationship between the head and hands.

I began thinking about how this also relates to the golf swing and Hogan's head motion and whether their is a common theme.

Of all the great discus throwers, the head was farthest from the discus at release, same with the shot put. Same with Hogan



Very interesting that in the shot put , the hands and head are the closest, during the momentum phase, and the furthest at the thrust, or release phase.

As I said before, the body does not care what is beyond the hands. It only cares about the weight in the hands and how to balance it, in order to swing or throw it. So how does the head and hands, work, to balance the motion in a golf swing, as does the shot put, or discus thrower and possibly the golfer?

The first question I would like to propose is, does anyone see a similar action is this video of Hogan's head always moving away from the hands? I am not saying this is exclusively pendulum, but maybe I am, wrt to natural balance.



If so, does anyone see the advantages of repeatability one would have in repeating this feel?

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Just thinking?

Balance, (feel) and pendulum motion, (energy). Effortless power?



Mark, 1lovegolf24