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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret

Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36578

  • Cy
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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Just thinking?

Balance, (feel) and pendulum motion, (energy). Effortless power?



Mark, 1lovegolf24

Mark, As you may know, one of the best and earliest scientific model for the golf swing is a double pendulum.

Published in this book based on real science, not TGM type fiction:

www.amazon.com/Search-Perfect-Swing-Scie...ntally/dp/1572431091

What can we learn from a double pendulum as a "perfect" mechanical swing model?

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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36580

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Cy,

Thanks for the post.

I observed that in order to tap into free energy, the hinges must be free and the swing in no way can be interupted.

As Mehlhorn suggests. There can be no interuption of the natural swing motion in order for the ball to go staraught.

paraphrasing there from his book, Secrets of Golf Exposed.

What quetion I have is, can the entire pendulum be advanced forward to add to the free energy?

Blake Burleson put up a video of a pendulum that moved forward just two inches in the pendulums DS and the arms went wild with energy.

Can we replicate this naturally or do we already?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36609

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Active , conscious, R foot pressure? For some it may work, but in reality there are other ways that seem more natural, and without thought.. Balance is key to moving wieght.

For example, this video. I hear Moe used to observe bowlers and their motion.



Here again , balance in a forward throwing motion. Notice the R foot



Again, in a swinging motion



Throwing motion,



The question is, is this a weight shift, or balancing act in order to move weight, throw weight, or swing weight forward? In any case, the object being swung, thrown, hit, etc, the R leg in never touching the ground at release?


Is golf the same , or different?

Did Hogan's pivot actually power the swing motion, or was it more of a natural balancing act?

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36626

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"As I said before, the body does not care what is beyond the hands. It only cares about the weight in the hands and how to balance it, in order to swing or throw it. "

Totally wrong.

Try learning by investigating how we assimilate tools into the proprioceptive model of our selves.
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36635

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Drew Art wrote:
"As I said before, the body does not care what is beyond the hands. It only cares about the weight in the hands and how to balance it, in order to swing or throw it. "

Totally wrong.

Try learning by investigating how we assimilate tools into the proprioceptive model of our selves.



Drew,

I am not sure what you point is or what you are dissagreeing with? I have read on the subject but the studies are far from facts. ;)

One thing is for sure, depending on what evidence you side with, it will happen, develope, naturally without thought :cheer:


Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36644

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Here a some of the wisest comments, from a self taught golfer who reached scratch, wrt, to the swing motion and implement we use.

Thanks Alan,

Alan wrote,

" When yall look at Mr Seniors swing,what do you think,his thought or image is.I believe he has an image in his brain of how he wants to apply the club to the ball pre-impact ,impact,and post impact.and these images thoughts make his feet,hips,shoulders etc,perform on auto pilot,,,,yr right to right grady does that for you.

the problem most high handicappers have is they dont have the proper imaging or visualization of how to apply the club,clubface,they dont understand how the tool is supposed to be used.if you took a wrench and tried to use it like a screwdriver,and thought thats they way it should be used,you see the problem,,,,,,Yall should be focusing on changing the average golfers understanding of the implement and the physics behind that


The difficulty of learning someones method of striking the ball,is your not them,so much of the success these people have found in striking the ball are thier internal thoughts and images and feels.they can teach the mechanics with great succces,and the feels with some succcess,but what makes their swing so good and the great ballstrikers swings so good and reliable is it belongs to them and is based on their internal feels thoughts,they dug it out of the dirt,so to speak,No two people are alike,do the great ballstrikers have things,mechanically in common,of course they do,but they all took different paths to get there. "

End


Alan,

So true. I swing a golf club exactly how I swing a baseball bat, axe, etc and also use those same motions to throw. So why should a golf swing be any different?

In short, I swing my hands the same, no matter what. my body just does it. However, as you suggest, the complexity of the club and it's dynamics is still somewhat of a mystery and work in progress..

What I am realizing, and again, as you mention, I don't need to change my swing, but rather change my understanding of the club and how it works. From there, I am making progress in changing my position to the ball, based on results, ie, club face, club path etc. but never my swing. Not anymore, at least.

Thanks alan, for a little simplicity and hope.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36645

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So, Hogan's ultimate secret thread of 7,000+ posts has boiled down to "just swing naturally"? I'm not trying to be snide here. Just wondering if you came to a conclusion, yet.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36647

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I am disagreeing with the statement you made, the statement I quoted.

What have you read, Mark?

There is a bunch of work that's demonstrated the neurological assimilation of tools BEYOND the hand as a part of the body schema (proprioception) as a learned behavior/ (i.e., skill) in primates.

Miguel Nicolelis, Beyond Boundaries would be a good place to start.

Won't fit with your natrual theory of everything, however.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36652

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Bob Perry wrote:
So, Hogan's ultimate secret thread of 7,000+ posts has boiled down to "just swing naturally"? I'm not trying to be snide here. Just wondering if you came to a conclusion, yet.



Mr. Perry,

Absolutely! Why not? Did we all believe he discovered something new? I hope not.

I have, on many occasions, equated Hogan's Ultimate Secret to the simply notion that Hogan discovered Hogan and what worked for him., whether it was the natural tendency of the wrist ot cup, the head to move, the pivot, use or non use of the hands, balance or any of the other 500 or so secrets he may have discovered, but in reality, they were natural and present long before he discovered them.

His swing, and what ultimately attract me to his motion is how natural it looks. Same with Furyk, Bruen, Loos. and many others.

Simply put, I don't think Hogan manufactured or put his swing together, piece by piece,per se, but rather he discoved "his" natural swing, piece by piece, based on his body and abilities.

It is astonishing that anyone would try and duplicate his swing, based on how much they resemble him on film.Why?

Makes no sense at all, and in reality it is an impossibility.

Ultimately, that was his Secret.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36653

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Drew Art wrote:
I am disagreeing with the statement you made, the statement I quoted.

What have you read, Mark?

There is a bunch of work that's demonstrated the neurological assimilation of tools BEYOND the hand as a part of the body schema (proprioception) as a learned behavior/ (i.e., skill) in primates.

Miguel Nicolelis, Beyond Boundaries would be a good place to start.

Won't fit with your natrual theory of everything, however.


Drew,

Based on what little I have read, www.yale.edu/cogsci/ritc.pdf and a few otheres, and my ability to understand or interpet it, I think it is fascinating, but how does that contradict my comment?

Also, if we trust what you have offered, to be true, how would we take that info and use it in the golf swing?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by 1lovegolf24.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36654

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Hypothetically speaking:
If I offered serious money to anyone who can find where someone lives and train a squirrel to chew through their internet connection do I have any takers?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36656

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phily wrote:
Hypothetically speaking:
If I offered serious money to anyone who can find where someone lives and train a squirrel to chew through their internet connection do I have any takers?


philly,

I would prefer you just pretend this thread is not here, if you don't mind, or maybe your connection here, may be revoked B)

Last warning! Hypothetically :cheer:

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36691

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phily wrote:
Hypothetically speaking:
If I offered serious money to anyone who can find where someone lives and train a squirrel to chew through their internet connection do I have any takers?

Silly, Phily... There is no training involved, it's all natural, man.

All you'd need is the Chuck Norris of the squirrel world.

Good candidate here:
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36694

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Drew Art wrote:
phily wrote:
Hypothetically speaking:
If I offered serious money to anyone who can find where someone lives and train a squirrel to chew through their internet connection do I have any takers?

Silly, Phily... There is no training involved, it's all natural, man.

All you'd need is the Chuck Norris of the squirrel world.

Good candidate here:

Drew,

I don't take threats to kindly, even in jist or hypothetically, and should you choose to be some sort of accomplist,add fuel to the fire, I will extend the same warning to you. Hypothetically, of course.

BTW, your not funny in the least!

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36696

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Drew,

If that is your real name, and as much as it pains me to even respond to your earlier antics, this is more relevant material that I find usefull in the golf swing.


"The Quantum Activist" By, Amit Goswami PHD

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36697

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Here's a noodle scratcher for you; Mr Hogan had at least 2 swings, his early caddie learned swing. Hitting ball's for distance and getting a few pointers from the members he caddied for; this matured into his Pre-Secret swing.

Then low and behold after a sleepless nigh,t he has a epiphany and the legendary Ben Hogan is reborn.

Which one of these swings was his natural one?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36698

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DaveJaVu wrote:
Here's a noodle scratcher for you; Mr Hogan had at least 2 swings, his early caddie learned swing. Hitting ball's for distance and getting a few pointers from the members he caddied for; this matured into his Pre-Secret swing.

Then low and behold after a sleepless nigh,t he has a epiphany and the legendary Ben Hogan is reborn.

Which one of these swings was his natural one?

DJV,


The second one. :) Actually his first left handed swing was his natural one. B)

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36699

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DaveJaVu wrote:
Here's a noodle scratcher for you; Mr Hogan had at least 2 swings, his early caddie learned swing. Hitting ball's for distance and getting a few pointers from the members he caddied for; this matured into his Pre-Secret swing.

Then low and behold after a sleepless nigh,t he has a epiphany and the legendary Ben Hogan is reborn.

Which one of these swings was his natural one?
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36700

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
DaveJaVu wrote:
Here's a noodle scratcher for you; Mr Hogan had at least 2 swings, his early caddie learned swing. Hitting ball's for distance and getting a few pointers from the members he caddied for; this matured into his Pre-Secret swing.

Then low and behold after a sleepless nigh,t he has a epiphany and the legendary Ben Hogan is reborn.

Which one of these swings was his natural one?

DJV,


The second one. :) Actually his first left handed swing was his natural one. B)

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf

Well without heading down another road of debating whether he was Left Handed or Right handed but could only buy a left handed club etc etc.

Here's a few blanks to fill in... :huh:

A child heads out to the caddie shack and learns to swing a club, he continues until he is at a stage where he can join the professional ranks. He can't win because of 1 all encompassing problem, under pressure his swing is ..... .......

So after years of frustration he learns of a technique or series of techniques that allows him to ............ .... ...... ......... swing.

He looses 10 yards of distance, but the consistency more than makes up for the distance loss.

No matter what techniques he found, Ben Hogan ....... .. his swing.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36704

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Drew Art wrote:
phily wrote:
Hypothetically speaking:
If I offered serious money to anyone who can find where someone lives and train a squirrel to chew through their internet connection do I have any takers?

Silly, Phily... There is no training involved, it's all natural, man.

All you'd need is the Chuck Norris of the squirrel world.

Good candidate here:

Drew,

I don't take threats to kindly, even in jist or hypothetically, and should you choose to be some sort of accomplist,add fuel to the fire, I will extend the same warning to you. Hypothetically, of course.

BTW, your not funny in the least!

Mark, 1lovegolf24

The jist of my jest was an observation of natural selection.

A Honey Badger is ferocious natural threat. I bet he could devour coaxial, fiber optic cables, and copper dial-up connections on the way to the refrigerator, 'cause he's a nastyass, and he don't care.



BTW, Hogan's real utlimate natural secret was that he had the mind of a Honey Badger, and that ain't no joke.

Look, its that little fercious nastyass Henny Bogan. Oh, my gosh. Just look at him. He outdrives Mike Souchack. Watch out Mr. Football muscle man, the crazy little 135 lb. Benji bantam just hit it by you.

They call him the Hawk 'cause he's the most fearless golfer in all the tour. Look at him hit that fade... oh, that's nasty!!

Henny Bogan doesn't give a ____, if he wants to win, HE WINS. Low spinning wedges: he's really pretty badass. Henny Bogan don't care. He takes, what he wants.

Now look, this little badass was driving his car and a mean old GREYHOUND BUS came through the fog into his lane... Henny Bogan don't care. He said: GET OUT OF MY LANE BUS!!! And the bus driver says, oooh it's that nastyass, Henny Bogan, ooh, get that Cadillac away from me, get away from me! EWWW, sorry. Stupid bus.

Little did Henny know, but he'd been hit by that bus. The doctors thought he might die, so they sliced him open and tied off his vena cava. SO, GROSS!

Is he dead? Oh, HELL NO, he's Henny Bogan. Watch him, he's gonna get right back up and start beating them all over again.

Watch out you golfers, that little crazy _____ is coming back to win another few U.S. Opens. So sorry Mr. Snead, you ain't got no U.S. Opens, little crazy nastyass Henny Bogan took them all, he has 4. Thanks for the lunch money, stupids.
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36714

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DaveJaVu wrote:
1lovegolf24 wrote:
DaveJaVu wrote:
Here's a noodle scratcher for you; Mr Hogan had at least 2 swings, his early caddie learned swing. Hitting ball's for distance and getting a few pointers from the members he caddied for; this matured into his Pre-Secret swing.

Then low and behold after a sleepless nigh,t he has a epiphany and the legendary Ben Hogan is reborn.

Which one of these swings was his natural one?

DJV,


The second one. :) Actually his first left handed swing was his natural one. B)

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf

Well without heading down another road of debating whether he was Left Handed or Right handed but could only buy a left handed club etc etc.

Here's a few blanks to fill in... :huh:

A child heads out to the caddie shack and learns to swing a club, he continues until he is at a stage where he can join the professional ranks. He can't win because of 1 all encompassing problem, under pressure his swing is ..unreliable... .......

So after years of frustration he learns of a technique or series of techniques that allows him to ...develope......... .his ... ..own.... ..natural....... swing.

He looses 10 yards of distance, but the consistency more than makes up for the distance loss.

No matter what techniques he found, Ben Hogan ...owns.... .. his swing.


DJV,

I am sure you had something else in mind, but I took a stab at it.


Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36724

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Me too. It is cool when one experiences the true genius of Hogan. Much like playing classical music knowing one is playing the same notes as the genius composer. The more investigation, the more appreciation of his insights.
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36727

  • Bradley Hughes
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Two more of Hogan's 'secrets' :unsure:


hoganchester.JPG


hoganpabst.JPG
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36729

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Ha. Visited my daughter in law in Nashville not too long ago and she took us to a dive bar on Music Row that offered PBRs for $2.00. I had several, but they tasted like crap! Maybe Ben didn't have all the secrets!
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Re: Hogan's "Ultimate" Secret 1 year 11 months ago #36731

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Naw, they just shot the ad out of sequence.

If you look at the bottom of the page:
First he spits it back into the glass,
Then he sniffs it to determine what smells so bad,
Then he holds it up to figure out what the hell he just put in his mouth.
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