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Glad I stumbled on this cool site! A Hogan fan referred me. One of the swings I like is Martin Ayres'. He is the only person I think has gotten close to the Ben Hogan swing mechanic. (See the youtube video I did comparing him to Hogan).



I too am taking up this challenge....to duplicate the Hogan swing. I've been at it for a few weeks now. I'm making very slow progress each week. Hopefuly, I'll have this accomplished withing the year, but who knows how long it will really take!

Welcome to the best golf swing and everything golf on the web!

Not sure how you relate Martin's swing to Hogan's but good luck with it.

I have been using Martin's inward twirl for most of the season and have only had a round in the 80's most are between 72-77.

Get his vid its worth every cent, it will open your eyes. When I struggle with the move al a Martin, I go back to my old punch swing with a lot shaft lean and holding of the right wrist angle. I just don't get any pop or smash as Elk says! I then immediately go back Martins vid and work the fundamentals and the magic returns.

Mike Maves aka Sevam1 has a very Hogan-like move. His e-Book is a great read and a eye opener.

Trevor

Ben Hogan Swing Project wrote:


Welcome, Ben Hogan Swing Project, to the Dirt, I am glad you made it over here.

I happen to agree with you about Mr. Ayers's swing. Alot of biomechanical similarities. Much can be learned from him, from both sides of the ball.

Good Luck

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Thanks Trevor! I'll be sure to get both books.

Regarding the "not sure how I relate Martin's swing to Hogan's"; Martin refers to Hogan in most of his youtube videos, and himself saying he is trying to get the Hogan move.

Martin Ayers method is absolutely what Hogan did in his swing. I have always been a good ball striker but struggled with inconsistency. One day I would have it and the next day I wouldn't. But with this method, I saw the previews for the Martin Ayer/Steve/Sevam1 video and went to the driving range to try it out before buying it and I can say that I've never hit the ball like that. Keep in mind that I used to fly my 2 iron 250yrds over trees onto a par5. This method just takes it to the next level. pure consistency. Since that night I went out to the range to try out the method I've purchased the full video and keep watching it and keep improving every time I go out to the course. The step out drill and hammer throw drills are great. Get with the curl and find what you've been looking for all your golf career!!!!

BHSP,
I like how you did the side by side, frame by frame with Hogan. Really is amazing how close Martin is to Hogan. You have a nice looking swing as well!

BHSP -

I commend you for your efforts at this.

I think this photo from Jules Alexander shows a LOT of how Hogan accomplished the left hand supination when the hands were in front of his right thigh.

If/when you can hit this position with full extension past the ball, you'll be well on your way.

That picture shows a deliberate intent to unload the energy to the right of the right leg (in terms of rotation) to me. Almost as though the only thing that would go forward is the ball.

BHSP, I think Drew Art's advice will go a long way to helping you on your project.

BTW, Drew Art, I would love to see any more pictures or frames from this shot of Hogan's

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Drew Art wrote:


Good Lord, it looks like the back of the left hand is facing the ground! I don't think you can hit it very high from here, lol. That is something that I definitely don't have in my swing at this point. Nice Pic!

Thanks Drew! When I get to the impact phase of the project, I'll be sure to work towards this. I am only in the address/takeaway phase, but when I look at my full swing now, I have nowhere near this type of supination.....wow..!

In the 'Take 3" swing, focusing on the takeaway. Trying to understand why right shoulder keeps rising while taking it back. Gotta do more to keep right shoulder down.

The funniest part of this video is swing #3, where I wanted to really FEEL my elbow jabbing me into my side during the downswing; doing this caused the club to move in towards me, which moved it away from the ball. I hit it just off the toe, and ball went flying sideways and bounced like a pinball around the garage, including into the ceiling above, which is our master bedroom, where my wife is lying in the bed. lol, I thought I had put my eye out. This is where my Mom would have said, "Mr. Anthony, you know we don't hit or throw in this house!!

The part you don't hear is when my wife yells "What are you DOING down there????? The sane people are trying to SLEEP!!!!!!!!"

LOLOLOL!!! I may have to set up a secret camera while I'm practicing to catch her hilarious reactions and comments!

Just got off the phone with Kim. She gave me a speech about having consideration for her sleep. I said "I did consider it lol........I considered that if the birds are chirping, and the sun is up, it's Hogan time!! Do you think Hogan laid in the bed when there was daylight?? lol" Then she requested that I pllllleeeeeaaaase move her truck out of the garage when I am being Mr. Hogan. She then reminded me of the cracked windshield on my own truck. Yeah, I cracked the windshield, but I wasn't practicing; I was doing something totally different………. I was in need of a golf fix (kinda like a drug fix lol). Here's the story:

It had rained non-stop for about a week, and I couldn't get out to the course. I checked the forecast every day hoping to get a round in at some point. The stinking forecaster said the rain would be over late Thursday nite and Friday would be "partly cloudy." Sooo, I took off work on that Friday. Cleaned my clubs and packed my golf bag that Thursday nite. Got up early Friday morn, had a champions breakfast, and headed to West Pines course for a well-needed round of 18. Left home and the skies were clear as spring water. Got closer to the course and it started to get dark. Parked my truck, and it got reeeeeeeal dark. It was about 10am and there was 1 other vehicle in the parking lot. My thinking was “I’m not letting a few dark clouds scare me away…..there WILL be some golf played today!!” Opened my door, put my foot on the ground, and the bottom of the black clouds above fell onto the earth like a stinkin waterfall. I was sooooo determined to play that day, that I got my clubs out, and splashed my way into the clubhouse. I walk in with my shirt and pants glued to me cause of the typhoon outside. The guy at the counter was locking the place up and said “Ummmmmmm……buddy, not gonna happen today. It’s a dang hurricane out there.” Of course, I didn’t hear him, cause I NEEEEEEED to play some golf. I just stood there cold and dripping onto his carpet. I said something stupid like “well, it may just pass over.” There was a television to the right of the counter that had the severe weather beep at the bottom of the screen with a splotch of red over about 3 counties. I stared at him, stared at the tv, stared at the range, stared at the parking lot, then just walked out in disgust. Didn't even say bye. (My apologies to the guy at the counter....my disgust was really for the weather man!) Got back in my truck and headed to Walmart to buy some wiffle balls to hit in the garage. Bought a few bags and headed straight home. Got home and the monsoon was still spitting on everything. I pulled into the garage and set up my "indoor range." I started hitting the plastic, wimpsy, flimsy whiffle balls towards a wooden target about 30 yards from my garage door. (I was hitting in the opposite direction as I am in the Take 3 video). I put up a target and had a pretty good time hitting it, but the balls just made that "whhhhhrrrrrllllllllll" sound with no real bang. I had a splendid idea.......and this is where i went wrong........I thought that since I was hitting the wimpy whiffles direct to the target, with EVERY club, EVERY time, that I would do the same if I hit a real ball. The precautious, adult side of my brain said that I should not hit a hard a$$ed golf ball into the wooden board, but into a nice, thick, safe, bed comforter. Soooooooo, I went upstairs and got one out of the closet. I got a bungee cord and tied it to a couple of yellow hooks that I screwed into the girders. Now if you can picture this, the comforter is MUCH larger than the wooden target on the wall behind it, so logic should say that I was being safe. I teed a Pro V1 up, grabbed my driver, and swung like I was at a Remax long drive championship. I must have been ramped up with adrelanine, cause I pull-hooked it into the concrete brick wall above the washing maching; the ball missed the giant comforter, ricocheted towards my truck, and right into my windshield, which left a nice sparkly crack. The funny part about it was I just stood there trying to figure out what I did to hook it......lol didn't even care about the $300 windshield I just destroyed lol. I can barely type this right now.......still laughing about it LOLOL!! The not-so-funny part of this is, of course, I ended the indoor driving range session, and forgot to take down the comforter. Kim got home and had all kinds of questions about why her comforter was bungeed to the wall. I told her I was "thinking" about hitting a few balls, but I didn't think it was a good idea (wink-wink lol). I eventually told her about it a couple of years later when we had friends over for dinner. We were all sharing funny stories of our marriages. My wife actually laughed about it; I told her the cracked windshield came from a hail storm.

I haven't fixed the windshield yet....maybe I'm keeping it that way as a reminder lol.

Here's my 'Take 4' video. Was experimenting with the famous Hogan concentration drill.
8-22-11. 10:45pm before bed. 7i DTL and FO



After watching this video, I laughed out loud that I had worked for an hour on getting the takeaway kinda in the range I wanted it to be in, and was satisfied for what I had put into it. Then I make a final recording of the full swing (the 'Take 4' swing), and I am nowhere near what I practiced for the hour. Old habits are hard to get rid of. New habits take time and repetition. Will do a few swings in the a.m. and make sure I have an understanding of what the takeaway should feel like..........then practice it for a month......or two......or six...............or thousand.

8-23-11. 7:45a before work 7i DTL takeaway.



In the 'Take 5" swing, still focusing on the takeaway. Didn't have but a minute to swing this morning; had to take daughter to school for a special function. Once we were about to walk out the door, I literally ran to the basement to get 60sec worth of takeaway on video. This is actually the best way to see what your real swing looks like, just grabbing a club and doing one, single swing, rather than rehearsing with 25 swings to "practice" for a video. I proved this to myself last nite; I did about 200 takeaways until it looked good, then took a 20min water/food break. I came back to record 1 last swing to confirm that the takeaway was perfect, and my muscles lost their memory while I ate grilled chicken, brown rice, and green beans. Or maybe there's something genetically engineered into todays foods that automaatically erases all Hogan swing thoughts lol.

Analysis: still don't understand the correct feeling. Right shoulder is still rising. When I slow things down and compare to Hogan, his right elbow appears to bend the instant the takeaway starts. Mine takes a second for the bend action to start. Even with this "wrong" move of mine, my club is very close to the plane line, but if I'm gonna match Hogan. I need for right shoulder to NOT rise.

Next practice session, I'm gonna focus on the right elbow bend and tweak it till it's right. That's the hard part; what feels right to me does not match what I am trying to do. Just another lesson of "what you feel is not real".

Comparison of me vs Hogan.
- My right elbow is not bending early enough.
- Once my right elbow gets behind my body, it is pointing up. Hogan's is pointing down.

Basically, Hogan's right shoulder is flat during the takeaway, and mine is heading upright.

I played around with the takeaway last nite for a couple of hours. I tried everything to get the club to travel up the plane line, while keeping right shoulder from rising, while keeping right elbow down, as Hogan's is.......but I just could not get it. I could get one of the three to happen, but if the shaft was on plane, then the shoulder rose. If the shoulder was flat, the club was way under plane. If the elbow was pointing down during takeaway, then all the rest of it went to trash. A dog could have done this move better than what I was coming up with lol. Went to bed looking at Hogan videos, analyzing the stinking takeaway. What is the elbow-shoulder-shaft connection? Kept passing by videos titled "Hogan's Secret," but I'm convinced that none of this is a secret cause it's right there in the video......in all the videos. I showed Kim the Hogan elbow-shoulder-shaft move just to get her involved in what I was doing and to get her opinion; she was attentive for about 2 minutes, then gave her scientific suggestion, "duuuhhhh, why don't you just do what he is doing in the video???" That's when I stared at her for about 5 seconds, then politely grabbed my laptop, and moved back to my side of the bed. Then she said "well don't get an attitude with me.......I don't really care about any of this Hogan mess; I'm just trying to help cause you asked my opinion..........you're the one trying to copy the guy. Seems to me that all you have to do is whatever he is doing. Just move your elbow and shoulder like his." Lol.....she makes this sound so simple.

Now to the best part.......woke up this morning and had a breakthru. FINALLY GOT IT!! I understand exactly how the takeaway is done. Elbow is down, shoulder is flat, club is right on the plane line. It isn't perfect, but now I have something to work with! And I didn't figure it out with physics or trigonometry. Just fiddling with the takeaway for the quintillionth time. I had both hands on the club, and was taking it back while looking into the puter screen, watching the elbow-shoulder-shaft...............I took my left hand off the club (in disgust and frustration), and there it was!!!!! The stinkin left hand has nothing to do with taking the club back. For all my golf career, I have always primarily used my left hand/arm to take the club away. When I first got into golf a few years ago, a "veteran" guy on the range approaced me and saw that I had no idea what I was doing. He mentioned that he had played for 50 years, and was a scratch golfer, and told me that "during the takeaway, you want have the feeling of 'giving' the club," meaning give it to someone standing on the target line to the right of you. While on the range, he stood in front of me, grabbed my left hand, and pushed it down the line and said "give" "give" "give." I also read about this concept in many golf magazines too. I tried his method and it made my ball striking better. Because he was a scratch golfer with grey hair, that could easily hit draws and fades, and highs, and lows, I trusted his every word, cause I wanted to not embarras myself on the range anymore. Now I realize that his word was for what he was doing in his swing.

Man.....finally! And, the waggle has soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much to do with the takeaway. Now I gotta tweek it till its as Hoganesque as possible.

BHSP, I am not sure which videos you have and what you try anfd copy, but here are some ones that show some very key positions, dynamically.



This is my personal favorite.



Good Luck

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Thanks Mark. I have access to all the youtube videos of Hogan. I've put together a study guide and practice schedule. RIght not, focusing on the address, waggle, and takeaway.

Hello there,

I like your dedication, your swing is looking quite good. Whats your ball striking been like?

I hope you dont take this the wrong way, but I think you are waisting your time worrying about hogans Take away positions.
I see so many people worried about the take away and backswing they forget what to do to actually hit the ball. I could put 1000 people in the exact position hogan was at the top and none would hit it the same.


I think you should focus totally what hogan did through impact first and work back from there. He used an ANGLED HINGE, In other words he pinned his right arm to his body While maintaining a BENT&FROZEN right arm through impact which keeps the club ON PLANE. Also it allows the club face to keep looking at the target a bit longer. But the KEY is doing this from a very very FLAT entry into impact or you come OTT.. Very few people do this and it takes a bit getting used to.

A guy called Peter Senior from Australia was great at this aswell. Jim Furyk also is a great one to look at, his right arm behaves very much like hogans, and he is extremely accurate.

Contrast this with Phil Michelsons arms flying off his body in impact and you have your reason why he sucks off the TEE..

99% of golfers who claim to swing like hogan have a right arm extending through impact and flinging off the body which pushes the club ABOVE plane, and closes down the club face prematurely, Which causes pushes and snap hooks.

Check this video out



This is the reason why hogan was so good IMO..

Great post, toby!!

And welcome to the dirt!!

Just got back from a weekend vacation to Florida. My iPhone went for a swim in the Gulf of Mexico, so I've been out of commision regarding communications and recording myself. Phone will be repaired or replaced within the week. Luckily, all my swings and journal were backed up. I took my clubs and planned to get to the course, but had a lot of other business related things going on, as well as Kim's itenerary. I did practice the takeaway a lot. In our condo, there was a full wall mirror in the living room area, which was perfect. I was able to see my alignment really good. I noticed that in the majority of Hogans swings, his right foot is 90 degrees to the target, and the left foot appears to be turned out about 22.5 degrees compared to the right foot, and appears to be well in front of the right. In my Take1 thru Take5 videos, this is something I thought I was doing too; setting up the same as he. In review, I was not. I did have my left foot open, but it was not close enough to the target line. My right foot was also not perpendicular enough to the target line. I am now setting my feet as Hogan and notice my right shin breaking down, or bending in towards the left knee. When I set my feet this way, it FEELS as if the ball will go right.......very right, but I don't know, as I have decided to not focus on any more full swings, only on the section of the swing I am working on. Right now, this section is the walk-into-the-ball/waggle/address/alignment.

My stinking iPhone parts arrived, but still no LCD backlight, so I haven't been excited about recording any of my swing practice. New iPhone isn't in the budget till late this month, so I will grit my teeth and use the V1 Home on my laptop. I really don't like it cause my webcamera is such low resolution, and it takes a lot of time to convert the video and get it up on youtube.

Got tired of working on the takeaway for the past 2 weeks. Wanted to play around with the full swing. I apologize to everyone following me, as I am not supposed to be thinking about impact till sometimes next year! Couldn't help it...........It has rained for the past week and I can't get to the course. Had to get some swings out of me. Also experimenting with a new camera angle.

I saw a still photograph of Hogan at impact and had an "aaaahhhhhaaaaHHHHHAaaaaa" moment. His supinated left wrist got me veeeeery curious, and I began experimenting with a few things.

My swing has changed dramatically in the past few weeks. I am absolutely smashing the ball into my homemade range. The ball sounds different when hit by the club, and the canvas "pops" when the ball pounds into it. When swinging in my basement, I now cannot complete a full swing because of the club wanting to fly up into the air during the follow-thru. Tearing a nice hole right into my HVAC ducts. I've GOTTA get to the course!!!

Swing is still nowhere near Hogan's, but I am understinding a LOT about his mechanics now!

Ben Hogan Swing Project wrote:

I understand Mark, but in my case, supination and bowing of the left wrist is not a natural occurence. I have to "remember" to do this each time I swing. Maybe cause I'm self-taught and have never known about what should happen "naturally."

But believe me.....if I don't purposefully bow/supinate the left wrist during transition/downswing, there is no "pop" of the ball, and ball goes right.