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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: In Search of the great Ballstrikers

In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34430

  • Grady Dickens
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I know many of you that post over on the Hogan Ultimate Secret Forum are tired of some of the endless posts about "Hands", "natural swing motion", " swing the clubhead" and Gerry Hogan cheerleaders so i thought I would offer an alternative thread. I would like to develop a thread for the advanced player. I invite teachers to participate, so long as they are respectful of other teacher's and their methods. Students of teachers are welcome to participate as well, as long as they offer substance, rather than justcheerlead. And please no scientific stuff. Conceptual stuff is welcome, and even encouraged, because it can stimulate "feels" for a player. And what you feel as a player is what I envision being the main substance of this thread. I would like to move my journey over here, if I can get participation from others. While I can't exclude anyone, I would really encourage guys that can break 80 consistently or better to strongly participate. I will continue to talk a lot about Hogan here if the thread takes off, but would like to broaden the focus to all great BallstrikersI. By that I mean players that swung the club ice and tight from right hippoket to left hippoket. Any interest out there in pursuing this?
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34432

  • Bradley Hughes
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Grady
I like how you said the word 'feel'
When it all boils down to it golf IS a game of feel
We need to create co-hesive body tensions right throughout the motion as that is the glue that holds the swing together and what gives the outside visual appearance people see when they view a swing
We hold the club in our hands... so the more 'feel' we get into our hands the more control we have
We need to create pressures and opposing forces right from our feet up our thighs into our hips into our core to the shoulders down the arms and ultimately into our hands
The best way I can describe this would be we are twisting a towel by pressuring it from both ends.. it starts in the feet and the core is pressured because of the opposing forces at work so the tension remains... it is not a forced tension as the players that did this best had the most fluid functional motions ever
There's a start point.... and I know you would feel this in your own motion
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34434

  • Dan
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Hi Grady,

Thanks for starting this fresh topic.

Being that you have studied both ABS and MPMIG techniques:

A difference between these two schools of thought seems to be that of active forearm rotation. Would you care to describe where you're at in terms of this issue at the moment and how you reconcile the different approaches to this part of the swing?

By way of background, I am asking as someone who has completed Bradley's programme and is on the path of building a swing using ABS protocols.

Cheers,
Dan.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34435

  • moehogan
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I'm in ...
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34436

  • phily
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in.

Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by phily.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34437

  • Grady Dickens
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@Dan,

I appreciate your question Dan, and I will answer it when I have the time to give a complete response. When I do I hope Festus and Squints will chime in, but right now I want to address Bradley's point on cohesive body tension.

We can discuss these tensions conceptually or specifically, but to start I would simply like to address feelings that run through my body on a particular shot. Even though I am quite analytical on te practice tee, I play by feel on the course. So on a specific kind of shot I don't consciously think of many mechanical thoughts. I see the shot in mymind and then feel it in my hands and body. For example, when I am faced with an approach shot into a brisk Texas wind, I really feel the shot with my chest. I really feel like I hit the ball with a thump of my chest. The only other feeling i am conscious of is feeling firm in the ground with my feet. That thought has always produced a piercing shot that goes very straight. It might draw a tiny it. I take plenty of club and finish low.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34438

  • Bradley Hughes
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Good....now we are getting somewhere
When the forces and pressures are felt from your feet right through to your hands...then you can start to really hit shots to appropriate distances also
You grip more down below so you can use the core more (as Grady suggested he feels).......thisis especially useful on those punch shots or half shots or three quarter shots....and of course you can also utilize different length backswings and choking on the grip to accommodate this and bring even more possibilities into play

Remember the golf course is not a driving range.....we aren't all flat out at each shot ...with a perfect lie and everything in our favour.....the golf course offers different shapes, different lies of uphill downhill sidehill...and uphill shots and downhill shots

Most players have a flat out shot full swing.....and they try and hit half shots by slowing down the pivot and the handsnd try take some off by slowing the moving pieces....or they try hit farther by stopping the pivot and trying to accelerate the hands and lose all control in the process

You can really start to gauge distance well when the cohesion is evident in the motion......you can actually begin to feel distance through the feet.......you will have a huge arsenal of clubs that you can use to any old distance on all types of trajectories.... instead of being tied down to 160 yards is an 8 iron no matter what
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34444

  • Steve P
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Honestly I would like to comment from time to time but breaking 80 consistently is not me. Nice day for me is breaking 80 though.
Also honestly if you would prefer I not post in this thread just let me know via pm and I will not.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34446

  • Timothy Goynes
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Count me in!

As Mike Maves has said, you feel a good swing in your feet. I agree whole-heartedly.

I don't know what all I have to offer that would be of any additional value next to guys like Bradley, but I can get a ball around a golf course in pretty good fashion. I'd like to get it around in an even better fashion, though.

One thing I think gets often overlooked in golf teaching is SOUND. A properly struck shot with a forged blade has a specific sound. It's a sound that turns heads, for sure...but it's also a sound that tells you that you don't even need to look to see where the ball is going, because it's going where you told it to. The sound that your shots make can tell you a lot about the quality of your strike.

Here's some great Trevino for everybody. Listen to that strike. That's the sound you're looking for. Notice how immediately different it sounds compared to Pate's hit. Also notice that on the 2-iron shot into the par 3 which he mistakenly left on the lower level, the sound is not the same.



I have a good friend, Rick Karbowski, who played on the Champions Tour from 2005 to 2009, and also played in several PGA Tour events including the 1983 US Open at Oakmont. At Oakmont, he was on the practice tee next to Nicklaus. And he told me that Jack's shots did not sound all that great. They all sounded a bit "clicky," a bit thin...like he hit every one on the 2nd groove...but they all flew the same. I've noticed in my own experience that a "sweepy," slightly thin hit flies nice and straight but very high (and as we all know, Jack was a high-baller). Here in Texas where it's windy, you can't play golf that way. When I compress the ball correctly and get a sound similar to what Trevino is getting in that video, the ball takes off on a lower, more penetrating trajectory. It carries just as far, and is not nearly as affected by the wind.

Here's an example of the "thwack" that Jack used to get:



This is not in any way meant to be detrimental to Nicklaus...he is my all-time favorite golfer, and in my book the greatest of all time...but I think those of us who are seeking greater ball control should be aspiring to the Trevino sound.

The main point I'm trying to make is: In addition to feeling a good swing, I think we need to be LISTENING to our swings too.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34455

  • Brad Owen
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Bradley Hughes wrote:
You can really start to gauge distance well when the cohesion is evident in the motion......you can actually begin to feel distance through the feet.......you will have a huge arsenal of clubs that you can use to any old distance on all types of trajectories.... instead of being tied down to 160 yards is an 8 iron no matter what

Love this, I have effectively quadrupled the amount of clubs in my bag from what you showed me in our last lesson. Slowing down the "cohesive" rotation enables us to hit clubs any distance we want without the club wanting to take over. It's actually a fun drill to do, go through the bag and every club, say, 100 yards, by changing nothing in the swing except for rotation speed, not having to worry about backswing length or timing makes it so much easier.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34458

  • Grady Dickens
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Steve P,

I would love to have you contribute here.

Brad O,

You are learning a pivot driven golf swing. It is a great thing, isn't it? When you put your ego aside and use this on the golf course it can really make golf fun. Before I learned this way to swing when I tried to hit a punch shot I would fight a nasty hook. Of course the more I extended my arms forward and tried to hold off the flip of the clubhead the more I would hook it.

Tim,

You are right sound is a forgotten attribute. Of course part of the reason is modern equipment. BTW, that Trevinocould play a little. Nice video.

To all, let's move to what you feel in your hands and body, and what, if anything, you see during the delivery to left hip phase of a stock long iron shot?
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34462

  • svsvincenzo
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@Grady

I don't think Hogan's R shoulder behavior changes on stock shots. Are you talking about slow motion vids as well? Reason I ask is because in real-time vids, Hogan's R shoulder always looks like its high because he stands up immediately after impact, I mean, his spine straightens relative to the ground. But in slow motion vids, it is always low and working down vertical at impact zone. In fact it remains low until his R arm is parallel to the ground, after which Hogan stands up. In real time, considering Hogan's very very fast pivot, probably the fastest ever pound for pound, that standing up will look like he is doing it at impact zone.

Can you show vids showing Hogan had a different shoulder behavior, i.e., R shoulder out moving out and high?
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34463

  • svsvincenzo
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@Grady

Here are more pics other than I posted in the other thread:


gifhoganblackpants1.jpg


gifhoganblackpants2.jpg


gifhoganblackpants3.jpg


gifhoganblackpants4.jpg


gifhoganblackpants5.jpg


gifhoganblackpants6.jpg


gifhoganblackpants7.jpg
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34464

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Here is a driver...don't know what shot he is hitting in here though...if he is trying to hit a pull-draw like on a dog leg left, he may be trying to curve the clubhead path to the left, hence he may be getting that R shoulder more out and up...but still, you can see in here his R shoulder is pretty much moving down from the top until way past impact...and the camera angle is on a 45 degree, if it is exactly DTL, the vertical movement of the R shoulder will be more pronounced...


gifhogandriver45degangle1.jpg


gifhogandriver45degangle2.jpg


gifhogandriver45degangle3.jpg


gifhogandriver45degangle4.jpg


gifhogandriver45degangle5.jpg


gifhogandriver45degangle6.jpg


gifhogandriver45degangle7.jpg
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34466

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Remember that since Hogan's shoulders are turning vertically, right after impact, his R shoulder is on its way up vertically already. So after impact, the R shoulder becomes "level" and "high" looking immediately.

That is why a high R shoulder can be interpreted differently. In fact, the more vertical the shoulders turn, the higher the R shoulder should be AT THE FINISH. If the shoulders turn more level to the ground, the R shoulder actually lower AT FINISH.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34467

  • Diz
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here is the best modern ball striker in the game ... Im not sure the old guys could even sniff this type of compression...

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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34468

  • Bradley Hughes
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Showing this because Grady was talking about hitting from pocket to pocket.....and just thru Duf in there because he has been playing great this year just as a reference to see any differences.
Had a bit of fun with some lines also by placing some of the pic....but won't show that yet.......has a bit to do with this shoulder talk etc but let's talk first about what we see


bhjd.JPG
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34469

  • Bradley Hughes
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And let's throw this one in also to view....... Lots of things to see if you use the ladies sitting on the bench for reference
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34470

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Duf goat humps a very tiny bit and raises his spine angle...if he doesn't, he will dig into the ground fat with a huge divot... His shoulders are also less turned post impact compared to Hogan...shows that Duf is stalling the shoulders/pivot and letting the arms cruise thru...Hogan is really pulling everything with his shoulders, especially the L shoulder pulling---the CP force in the works...
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34471

  • svsvincenzo
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Bradley Hughes wrote:
And let's throw this one in also to view....... Lots of things to see if you use the ladies sitting on the bench for reference

Darn Brad...can you make that quicker please...my eyes actually closed for a few seconds on that one...now I have to replay it...lol

EDIT: THANK YOU! Now I'm gonna pirate that to my hard drive!...lol
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34475

  • phily
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don't want to get too far off track from where Bradley & Grady were going but I just gave the thread a quick scan this morning and wanted to ask, regarding right shoulder turning down and through, I wonder if you can really talk about it's path independently, without including the intent of the right elbow / right hip (?)
logically there's a kinetic order but I can't quite disconnect my right shoulder path from a slotted / connected right side, feel / intent wise.


have a great 4th folks / looks like this is going to be an awesome thread.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by phily.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34477

  • svsvincenzo
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Phily, how do you attach in your post the gif files? I attach them just like a still pic, but it doesn't move at all. Why? When you hover the cursor on the "Add File" button, it says extensions with .gif can be attached.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34479

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Posted this in the other thread. I think this is worthy of re-posting in here. I think this is the only up the line still pics of Hogan. Anybody got anything of similar camera angle?

hogan_2011-11-27_2012-07-04.jpg
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34482

  • Zico Martin
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Hi Bradley, you played with Tiger around the time when he was probably the dominant player in World golf - putting to one side his problems with the modern driver, how was he with his irons back when you played with him?

And did he also always have a face like a slapped a~se back then? :lol:

ZM
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by Zico Martin.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 3 months ago #34484

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svsvincenzo wrote:
Phily, how do you attach in your post the gif files? I attach them just like a still pic, but it doesn't move at all. Why? When you hover the cursor on the "Add File" button, it says extensions with .gif can be attached.
SV,

after uploading to Photobucket, I select their


(would appreciate it if folks just used them at SITD only - thanks)

*I'll make a quick gif out of those sequence photos you posted and send/PM you the link Photobucket generates - post it to check that it's not something else causing issues.[IMG] link Photobucket generates - post it to check that it's not something else causing issues.
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by phily.
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