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TOPIC: In Search of the great Ballstrikers

Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35502

  • ryan
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SV,

Why would anyone want to hold on to full wrist c0ck in that position. With the right arm in that position wouldnt a fully c0cked right wrist put the clubhead above his waist? What I see is more wrist hinge though. Or a small amount of c0cking with the majority of the position being hinged.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35503

  • svsvincenzo
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ryan wrote:
SV,

Why would anyone want to hold on to full wrist c0ck in that position. With the right arm in that position wouldnt a fully c0cked right wrist put the clubhead above his waist? What I see is more wrist hinge though. Or a small amount of c0cking with the majority of the position being hinged.

Didn't say that. I'm saying holding on to the wrist cock is impossible...the force of the clubhead is too much in a full swing...nobody can prevent it from uncocking...
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35504

  • Bradley Hughes
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Returning the club back to impact close to where we started at address is only possible by retaining wristcock.
As soon as the wrists uncock...which will happen from a steeper down the line delivery path into impact, the shaft raises into the strike and the alignments are lost.... the right wrist flattens out and the clubface rolls over at a much greater rate of closure.
The wristcock IS going to be eventually released but it should be done by keeping the left armpit and right elbow in connection and the angles get released later by the connected post impact acceleration of the pivot.
and NOT by thrusting the right arm away from the body and flattening the right wrist out prematurely.
The power source is the core...and not the arms
RIGHT ARM is the key to maintaining this

wristcock.JPG
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Bradley Hughes.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35505

  • ryan
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Bradley,

What about wrist hinge? Should it be maintained too?
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35506

  • Grady Dickens
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SVSV,

Saying holding wristcock is impossible in a full swing is a strong statement. Difficult, yes, but impossible? Those pictures of Player and Hogan show a lot of retained angle in the left wrist. As Bradley said it is impossible if you are hitting down from the top, but, if you instead get the club slotted very deep and can pull that sword from that position that is behind you and low I think is is possible. that is why I spent some time earlier in the thread talking about a feeling of up through the strike.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35507

  • Jeff
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Grady Dickens wrote:
Firm intentions...stick the finish...words from John

My expression of those intentions:




Pretty good pop for an abbreviated backswing and gentle acceleration intent. Need more Chi Chi post impact though :lol:

What's the advantage of sticking the finish? Does this help you limit clubface roll post impact?
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35508

  • powerfade66
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Grady Dickens wrote:
Speaking of that other thread, someone on ABS posted a 1970 Golf Digest interview with George Knudson.

Regarding "natural motion"

"I studied Hogan." He says earnestly. "He has the finest swing I have ever seen put together ARTIFICIALLY."

Regarding strength needed to swing well:

He spent 2-3 hours a day lifting weights according to the article (lots of leg presses). "I've got to get stronger," he says, "because the only way I can compete with a guy like Jack Nicklaus is to make myself more efficient."

Regarding what he worked on:

"There are two things on which I concentrate," Knudson says. "The first is to keep my left wrist very FIRM, never hinging it. The second is to attain perfect balance by transferring the weight THROUGHOUT my downswing from the inside of my right heel to my left toes."

Conclusion:

I will have a lot to say about Knudson in this thread, but for now it appears (i) he worked on maintaining wrist cock, (ii) gradual acceleration all the way to the finish and (iii) believed the golf swing was a learned athletic movement requiring strength. :cheer:

it's a coincidence you mention Knudson as I reread his book last week. it's amazing how you can read these things years down the track and it's like you've never read them before because you reread them in the context of the knowledge you've acquired since. there are many passages that back then I breezed over when now they seem like absolute nuggets. same goes for Hogan's books obviously.

Knudson mentioned this left wrist firmness earlier in the book but later seemed to withdraw from it somewhat by saying he changed his grip pressure back to about as light as it can possibly be and that the tension created when wrapping the left hand around is enough and that the only other slight bit of pressure is in the right thumb and forefinger which is a bit different. he also said that he tries to feel like the hands stay in the same orientation from start to finish. you can see this very clearly in the way he brings the club back down in front of himself after each shot. i really like that idea because it separates hand action from wrist action and allows the wrists to work more from gravity and creates the free hinge appearance that gives his swing and Hogan's swing the appearance of flow and no hint of placing the club here or there. it's great for keeping the club on a shallower plane too. don't give the hands enough tension to lift it! he also places great value on the finish position. he says if you get the start position correct and finish position correct with balance and weight transfer in between you are going a long way towards a good shot.

more specifically, the section on how he used to watch Hogan a lot as a rookie and then later played rounds with him was fascinating. he was very big on trying to narrow down what the good ballstrikers of the time did differently. he must have been successful because there was a view in the late 60s and early 70s that he did Hogan better than Hogan himself. that's a big call but a nice compliment nonetheless.

the first was a sense that the good players had full control of the club with their left hand right through to the finish.

with Hogan he said he was the only one who came down and finished flush on his left foot as opposed to rolling off the outside instep. he noticed that Hogan set up with his left foot set outside his left knee and shoulder and in Knudson's view it was to facilitate where the weight ends up on the downswing. it explains why they both had wide stances but taking it further perhaps not as wide as you'd think if the hips and knees are oriented within the stance. similarly to Hogan the legs are slanted inwards so the ability to turn is not restricted by locking out the knees and hips. they both dragged their feet through large amounts of weight transfer to bring the feet very close together at the finish. compare this to the 80s and 90s and perhaps even today where the legs are stable and kept quiet. i know which I prefer. aside from the benefits in power and moving the shaft around where you want it, using the legs gives you something to do. it occupies the mind and body so that you can't help but hit later in the downswing. quiet legs make it so you have to wait and allow things to drop and be very patient. dancing legs can have a bit of a party and make something happen in the swing. under pressure I think having something to do is very important. same goes for guys like trevino but in a different way who are busy throughout the swing.

he also noticed how free flowing Hogan's swing was and how the transfer of weight was uninterrupted. this is where he got the idea of swinging as though you don't have a head. a lot of players restrict themselves a bit by ensuring the head stays behind the ball. Knudson's moves off the ball a bit going back and allows it to flow through on the downswing while still being behind the ball at impact to keep his left shoulder and low point under control.

i've already got 18 matches from Shell's including two of Knudson's and also his instructional vhs but still thought it necessary to put through the following order last night for some rare ones......

johnny pott v kel nagle
george knudson v stan leonard
mickey wright v brigette varangot
george knudson v al balding
gene littler v george knudson
bruce devlin v charles sifford
marlene streit v mickey wright
peter thomson v dave marr

oh and as for strength, he said he was about 130 pounds and increased that to 165 or 170 in a very short time. a year or two from memory with a combination of weights and isometrics.

you got me at Knudson Grady.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by powerfade66.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35509

  • Burk McDuff
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powerfade66 wrote:
[quote=

i've already got 18 matches from Shell's including two of Knudson's and also his instructional vhs but still thought it necessary to put through the following order last night for some rare ones......

johnny pott v kel nagle


p'fade....Please inform where you got access to the vid of the Johnny Pott match. He was an early hero of mine...even before I became mezmerized by golf. Thanks!
Burk
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35510

  • Festus
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Holding wrist cock is certainly possible through the strike, but like Grady suggests is not the easiest thing in the world to do, it takes some work building strength to do it. If one takes a super super light medium, say perhaps balsa wood for a shaft, it is really simple to do, but then one is faced with all kinds of shaft distortions when pivoting. So when getting a heavier shaft to eliminate the distortions now you have a physics problem with something heavier wanting to get away from you quicker with a dynamically heavier feel. So you just have to keep working to get stronger. I can't think of a more reliable way to retain shaft pressure than, among a few other things, holding wrist cock against a rotating core.

So in some regard, I believe there is a direct correlation between how much deadweight one can handle dynamically at the moment while changing their DNA, versus how much they choose to handle at some point down the road through continually working on getting stronger...because as one gets stronger overall that heavier deadweight, now closer to us, should actually feel dynamically lighter....a weird kind a paradox I reckon', but not really when you think about it. :)
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Festus.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35511

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Festus wrote:
Holding wrist cock is certainly possible through the strike, but like Grady suggests is not the easiest thing in the world to do, it takes some work building strength to do it. If one takes a super super light medium, say perhaps balsa wood for a shaft, it is really simple to do, but then one is faced with all kinds of shaft distortions when pivoting. So when getting a heavier shaft to eliminate the distortions now you have a physics problem with something heavier wanting to get away from you quicker with a dynamically heavier feel. So you just have to keep working to get stronger. I can't think of a more reliable way to retain shaft pressure than, among a few other things, holding wrist cock against a rotating core.

So in some regard, I believe there is a direct correlation between how much deadweight one can handle dynamically at the moment while changing their DNA, versus how much they choose to handle at some point down the road through continually working on getting stronger...because as one gets stronger overall that heavier deadweight, now closer to us, should actually feel dynamically lighter....a weird kind a paradox I reckon', but not really when you think about it. :)

it's just like an arm wrestle at the saloon really. it feels heavy when you're losing the battle, light when winning.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35512

  • powerfade66
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Burk McDuff wrote:
powerfade66 wrote:
[quote=

i've already got 18 matches from Shell's including two of Knudson's and also his instructional vhs but still thought it necessary to put through the following order last night for some rare ones......

johnny pott v kel nagle


p'fade....Please inform where you got access to the vid of the Johnny Pott match. He was an early hero of mine...even before I became mezmerized by golf. Thanks!
Burk

Shell's Wonderful World of Golf Matches
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35514

  • Grady Dickens
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Powerfade,

I suspect you have seen this, but it is one of my favorite videos. As you discuss, George moved his lower half better than anyone ever has. He just took control of that turf and ripped through it! I really like his early swing better than his swing in later year, like on his VHS instructional video. In ABS lingo I think he was more of a "hitter" in his prime, than later. Indeed, that may be why he said Hogan had an "artificial" swing in that 1970 article, which was during his prime, and later called his instruction book "Natural Golf." As I said, I would like to delve into Knudson in greater detail here. Looks like you will be a big help there. I am also posting an excerpt from one of his Shell Matches. The ballstriking here is extraordinary...the putting is...awful.





One of the things that looks interesting to me is Knudson's setup. As you said he wasn't a big guy, but he really bent his knees a lot at setup and really kept that knee flex all the way throughout his swing. Still with that knee flex look how low his arms are at address. I have never seen Knudson's specs, but he must have played some of the flattest lie angles of all time.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Grady Dickens.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35515

  • Grady Dickens
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Jeff said: What's the advantage of sticking the finish? Does this help you limit clubface roll post impact?

@Jeff,

Perhaps Bradley or John can respond to your question, but I would say that sticking the finish provides confirmation that you have made good swing. The club points straight up to the sky and the clubface points to the left of you. You could just put the club back on the ground and hit a shot dead left of where you just hit your shot. Of course, your arms and the club will do their own thing from this point and your finish will have it's own signature, but if you have swung well the arms and club should pass through this point.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35516

  • Brian
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An easy way to "stick the finish" every time or "land firmly on the left" is to torque into the inside of your left knee and foot CCW during the downswing (just the opposite of the torque you put into your right side on the BS). If performed correctly, you will turn CCW into your braced left side until you naturally "pop up" into a relaxed finish position with your left foot flat on the ground. Another thing you will notice is that your spine will be nice and vertical in your finish position, creating minimal/no strain on your back.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35517

  • Grady Dickens
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Was trolling ebay and came across a persimmon driver (not a famous head, just says "custom") with an X500 shaft. So I bought for the novelty of it for $30 with shipping. I am just curious...I assume the shaft is very stiff and very heavy. Anyone ever play one?
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35518

  • anton
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its not gonna be much heavier than x100, maybe just by a few grams but not something you likely to notice if you get it to the same swingweight you used to. it should play much stiffer tho especially in persimmon so make sure people in front of you know to watch out for it coming at their knees if you fore ;)

those Knudson videos are all wrong in terms of aspect ratios so they look like everything is flat and there is much more knee bend than there actually is. plus he used to wear those slim fit pants that exaggerate knee bend a bit. if you really wanna see alot of knee bend look at John Schlee.

heres better video of Knudson. decent amount of knee bend but nothing unusual.

George Knudson 1967 Golf Swing
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by anton.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35520

  • John Erickson
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1_2012-07-27.jpg


Much more knee flex than most. In a proper golf swing, the legs will initiate the change of direction of the club and also allow the shoulders to stay closed much longer allowing them to accelerate at a greater rate through and beyond the strike. Knudson had some of the best action ever... especially his footwork. Notice the strong presence of left knee flex into impact... he's really going at this thing too. Most of today's pros are popping out of it much earlier in an attempt to aid the torso rotation. But this disturbs both swing plane and low point to some degree. It's the footwork that is key and must work in tandem with the post impact pivot rotational acceleration. I'm big on footwork and teach it early to my students.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by John Erickson.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35521

  • Steve P
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Big thank you to Mr Erickson for posting here. Its a pleasure to hear your thoughts.
Knudsons short armswing to me is very admirable. Its obviously possible given his excellent lower body work.
It strikes me that someone of his caliber had something so different in mind from most in terms of his intent coming to delivery. The head of the club must be far from the target line first in order to utilize his lower body as he did. To me the Understanding and realization that one should bring it from behind and around with low hands is quite important.
This might seem basic and inconsequential to many here but I think understanding for some is very important.
why did the greats lay it off???
To me its understanding that every degree you come steep is another degree of pivot you have cut off from yourself in other words one can have great position at top but if clubhead comes directly towards target line too soon you have negated your potential leverage and arms MUST straighten early else you will slice If rotation continues...Leverage is key.
Its not hard to get that laggy look by handle drag towards the ball but too much and you have run out of leverage far too soon.
IMO its best to combine a bit of drag and a late throw with leverage through the ball but its not possible unless hands are low and clubhead behind.
True lag to me would be viewed in terms of overhead view with maximum degree of rotation available as late as possible.
Even if One begins in hoganlike or knudson like position if handle is dragged towards ball to soon leverage from pivot is no longer available and clubhead 'casts' too soon...
I think more important than anything is intention...
It would seem that when understanding /intention is changed form can follow function IMO as it always should...
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by Steve P. Reason: added sentence
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35523

  • Dave
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Great post, very clear explanation. To me, lag is just distance. As you say, the head should be as far from the ball as possible for as long as possible. Correct, the longest path must be shallow, though I wouldn't necessarily agree that the hands MUST be low. But the clubhead must be behind. That famous picture of Moe is about the best visual I've seen for that (the one where he says this is what he and Hogan did). His hands are relatively high in that picture if I remember right. The way I see it, keeping hands high as well as back would increase your lag possibilities. If you drop them, you've only got distance in one dimension, if that makes sense.

And yes, handle-dragging is death, bringing the handle forward will kill lag. The interesting thing about this is that, when looking at a laggy position in 2D, all angles look narrow. So the temptation would be to bring the arms and club forward to try to preserve that "angle" into the ball. Yet in 3D they are much wider, and the narrow angles are created by maintaining a feeling of width. JMO anyway.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35525

  • phily
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Not trying to break the Knudson flow here, just saw this in a video and thought it was interesting & relevant.

(copied exactly as already shown & looped from a YouTube video)

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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35527

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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35528

  • Diz
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sure looks like Hogans exit was alot faster then Knudson in real speed...
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35529

  • Grady Dickens
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Phily,

Can't stay away from Batam Ben huh? ;) Nice GIF.

Dave,

Appreciate your post here. I would like to find some common ground on this "hands high" thought since it is a big principle of Martin's teaching. We are talking about feels on this thread...because that is what players do... they find feels that work and repeat them...science be damned. So I can agree with you on the high hands to delivery if we are thinking about where they feel in space in relation to my clubhead. I want to "feel" like the clubhead almost touches the ground behind my right foot before I "pull the sword from the stone." However, I don't want to feel the hands high through the strike. CF forces are at work to create a straight line from the clubhead to the left shoulder at impact. If I try to keep my hands high through the strike I am only assisting those CF forces. Instead I feel from delivery through the strike very low hands and a high clubhead. This is my "feel" to try and return the club shaft to address angle. This is consistent with my thoughts on aiming high expressed earlier in this thread. This is a particular struggle for me since I am so tall. In any event, since I am removed from Martin's teachings I am wondering how you get the shaft back to address angle at impact with this high hands thought.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35531

  • Grady Dickens
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Steve P,

You are so right. I came across a Golf Channel segment with Harman and Tiger from years ago. They were talking about getting the club in front. Tiger talked about having the feel of starting the downswing with his upper body. Of course, this was during Tiger's great period and it is blasphemy to criticize, but this approach way so different than what Knudson and Hogan did. They got "stuck" but knew what to do with it. The more stuck the better.
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Re: In Search of the great Ballstrikers 2 years 4 months ago #35533

  • Dave
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Agree that feel may not necessarily be real. From what I understand, DOCF doesnt really say anything about hands high through impact. However - Martin advises flat lies, and absolutely no standing up or backing out through impact, so I guess that equates to address plane. I was also with Marty once when he was getting a club bent - the guy said he was surprised he wanted it so flat because most people stand up a bit through impact, Marty said "I don't" :-)

Coming back to the question, my opinion is that guys like Hogan and Trevino kept the left arm up as long as possible, in fact all the way through the swing, and let the position of the hands at impact take care of itself. I think throwout is anyway caused by other factors and if you keep that left arm high it will stay connected and you wont get the position you guys especially hate so much :-)

What I am feeling right now in my own situation, is that keeping the left arm high and feeling the hands and clubhead as far from the ball as possible (ie back), all the way, gives me the purest strike. What actually happens at impact in terms of arm position and uncocking of the wrists etc, I really have no clue, it just happens.

And Steves point about the clubhead coming from behind the arms (ie behind the right arm) and not pulling with the left arm is key because it allows you to flatten it out as much as you want.
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