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There's a difference between "still" - "devoid of or abstaining from motion" and "steady" - "direct or sure in movement" Stationary is not possible, steady is. I do not have 'different views'; I still study 2 of the most mechanical books ever written.. The Search for the Perfect Swing (Cochran and Stobbs) and The Golfing Machine (Homer Kelley); and I also have a paper on The Assessment of planarity of the golf swing based on the functional swing plane of the clubhead and motion planes of the body points written by Young-Hoo Kwon which he doesn't pass out like popcorn, that I can never study enough of.. I asked nicely at The World Scientific Congress of Golf and he gave me a copy. I thanked him very much. My views are as clear as a sunny day after a rain storm.

"As the golfer-club system overall forms an open chain and the ultimate goal of the downswing is to develop a high velocity of the distal end (clubhead), a planar downswing is the simplest shape of motion that one can achieve" - Young-Hoo Kwon

The golf swing is mainly controlled by the arms and the hands..

Eric,

Your views arent so different from many of us. (typed that before I saw your most recent quote...planar downswing. Definitely cant agree, since I dont understand what you said. ) Is that anything like a straight arc?

Do you feel that if you set up properly, control your arms and hands, that the balance and fluidity happens or you must work at it?

Eric Hamlin wrote:


I find it different that he would say to have the velocity in the clubhead. I find it better to feel the velocity in the shaft. If you feel the velocity in the shaft there is less tendency to flip at the ball and lose your lag. This is all my opinion of course.

Excuse me for asking, but I don't get how an 'arc' can be 'straight', an arc can't be straight.. :/ There's an arc on a circle, which is tilted to form an inclined plane which has 2 paths (back and forward). But I don't know where a "straight arc" is.

-As for balance, I feel like I'm growing roots out of the bottom of my feet that seep into the earth to make me feel "rooted" which helps create a strong base for the rotating torso and the orbiting arms. Balance is centered until after impact, moving all the weight to the front foot for a stabilized finish.

"Swing the Whole Club all the way to the finish in the direction of the target." - Manuel de la Torre

Eric,

Admit have never heard of
Young-Hoo Kwon

Quick search and seems he is prolific in his study of biomechanics.

www.twu.edu/kinesiology/biomechanics-publication.asp

Thanks for bringing some new light into our discussions.

PS I take it your not interested in Ben Hogans secret.

Excuse me for asking, but I don't get how an 'arc' can be 'straight', an arc can't be straight.. :/ There's an arc on a circle, which is tilted to form an inclined plane which has 2 paths (back and forward). But I don't know where a "straight arc" is.

-As for balance, I feel like I'm growing roots out of the bottom of my feet that seep into the earth to make me feel "rooted" which helps create a strong base for the rotating torso and the orbiting arms. Balance is centered until after impact, moving all the weight to the front foot for a stabilized finish.

Eric,

'straight arc' is an inside joke around here...unfair to throw it your way.

When you say balance is centered until after impact. Do you feel a constant point of balance until after impact or does the balance point change as we pivot. OR you dont think about it, and just do it. There must be balance to have fluidity.

I would love it Eric Hamlin if you could give us some background on yourself. To me it seems like you coming into this thread out of nowhere and just throwing your points out there like their facts. This thread is about friendly debate about the golf swing but i dont think thats how its going.

" the ultimate goal of the downswing is to develop a high velocity of the distal end (clubhead), "

Well- The above is only one part of the utimate goal.

I would state the ultimate goal as:

1) to develop a sufficiently high velocity of the distal end (clubhead), to match the distance intended;

2) to sufficiently control the axial rotation of the club face to match the initial directional component intended; and

3) to sufficiently control the angle of attack to ensure that the determinate plane combination of the angle of attack and club face direction (axial orientation) and path produce the desired shot direction, shape and spin intended;

AND MOST IMPORTANT:

4) Don't consciously think of any of the above in a competitive round of golf - EVER.

Eric,

I am glad you are here, and appreciate a new perspective. You like "The Hat" who taught John a TGM swinger protocol back in his youth. You mention Manny...I would like to learn more about his teachings. I am aware of him, but haven't studied him.

I would encourage you to go to John's Advanced Ballstriking site and read through his thread called "Let's Talk Golf Machine"... Would be interested in your impression.

The uncompensated ego pattern is also possible!

...just sayin'

Aric
you have a nice swing! Welcome.
I think a double pendulum model can be a great concept.
Rhythm balance and that is great too.
But another viewpoint is that the club is an unbalanced lever.
A double pendulum lacks shaft torque.
For a really pure swing Guy everything you said is very true.
Bare feet yep you will learn a lot from that I believe. Rhythm is key.
The lever Guy needs no rhythm he uses a sequence. Fast or slow the sequence is the same only the force changes.
So for a pure free swing I think you are on it love to hear some more.
For methods that differ a bit like lever guys I believe they leave little to chance/faith they make things happen actively.
So remember there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Good to see such a skilled fresh face!

Welcome, Eric.

I, too, find straight arcs hard to understand, but that doesn't mean they do not exist. You mentioned that you "...do not know where a straight arc is." I started to think about that. So I googled it and discovered that straight arcs do exist. One straight arc can be found in galaxy cluster abell 2390. 

The universe is a big place. There must be others.

Just wondering, did Manuel de la Torre discuss the Ring of Fire with you?

Eyeball,

I thought that The Ring of Fire was the sole domain of the Great Johnny Cash.

Drew Art wrote:


OK - now THAT was funny!

BG

Meanwhile back at home...The reward of much effort...There is a point to this...I think...

Planar downswing sounds safe and sound in theory.... but I don't see the majority of great ball strikers taking this route.

If we consider Planar by definition to be "in 2D"

The more sophisticated downswing work the club from the 3rd dimension.. then into more of a 2D through the strike.





A baseball pitcher might be a good example... as his arm is back toward first base before it slings the ball down the line toward home plate. A proper golf swing is not so different.

While velocity has a tendency to straighten out these things in a more linear fashion (say from a DTL view) these visual in line appearances are often the result of opposing forces pulling things is very different directions than most would imagine. This is why golf is often best taught by good players rather than arm chair scientists. I have seen a substantial amount of flawed thinking in books like "Search for the Perfect Swing" and "The Golfing Machine".

I agree with you on this JE. That so-called planar DS is measuring the plane of the shaft (am I right?). I think the planes that one should care about are the planes of the shoulders, hands/L wrist and the clubhead, which to my mind are what matters. A shaft plane (such as what you drew above) tells us nothing, except that an over plane/flatter shaft plane to me just means there's more accum #3 available from that point onwards, an under plane/steeper shaft plane to me just means there's less accum #3 available from that point onwards.

As I've said before, I think the above planes of the shoulder, L wrist and clubhead should match at SETUP. Otherwise you'll be forever trying to match them DURING the swing.

So, why not just fix the shoulder plane, L wrist plane and clubhead plane at setup in 3D? I think the determination of these planes should start by determining the shoulder plane first.

The shoulder plane=try doing and observing and then memorizing how you will turn your shoulders during the swing--flat, level, steep, or in between...doesn't matter (though I prefer more steep than level)...when you've got this nailed down, memorize it.

L wrist plane=while doing your desired shoulder turn plane, you determine where you find your L hand to be located at impact. You may want to detach your arms, keep them connected, or in between, doesn't matter (though I prefer connected arms). Once you've observed this, do your normal swing and stop at impact position, there's your L wrist/hand plane location...

The clubhead plane=easy...now that you know the L wrist/hand location at impact, at impact you just fully uncock your L wrist and then adjust the club's grip in your L hand so that the clubhead is just exactly hovering just slightly and sweetspot on the ball.

I find my above method above very easy, foolproof, even if I adjust something in my swing.

You are half right with shaft plane SVSV, but still missing one gig distortion there when watched only from DTL.

Because of camera angle and other distortions it's impossible to say what is real flattering and what only seems like that when player for example casts the club head. When club head is moving toward the camera, it also seems to move more behind of the player when it doesn't.

Just one more big problem with video analyzes and plane illusion.

SV

You are improving , half right is better than nothing

...

svsvincenzo wrote:


What you meant with this original message that you modified?

"It's the moon...full up there...I mean, here..."

I deleted it, slip of the tounge...it won't add anything in here..

What do you think it means? I will tell if you are wrong or correct...

Does anyone care to notice the position of the HANDS in the DS of these players ? They have positioned their hands ( right palm up ) throughout the downswing . This VERY important control --- BY THE HANDS ONLY forces the right elbow into the right hip area , where all great ball strikers
End up. This also lines up the levers between the arms and the shaft into their most powerful position. THEN-- it is the TURNING OF THE TORSO that provides the power, not the HANDS.

Regards,

Lane

Yes, agree on that one. The question is, how did they do that? Did they consciously put those in those positions? And when? At that time, before, way before, or after?...lol

Lane IMO you should watch cartoons.
Seriously in jest.

Stay thirsty my friends.