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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets

Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35778

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Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by 1lovegolf24.
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35779

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Secret,

Every person, dedicated to achieving their goals, will eventually find what works for them. No exceptions. :)

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35780

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Matthew Syed in the book "Bounce" recounts a story of what he experienced as 1 of Britains top Table Tennis champions. 1 member of the team was known for his speed, his reaction time on the table was legendary. A university research team tested the entire teams reaction time.

They used standard reaction time test not related to table tennis, to the amazement of everyone the legendary player had the slowest reactions. Reactions times can be related to the action you are performing, hard work practising the right way is key to improvement.
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35783

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Secret,

Every person, dedicated to achieving their goals, will eventually find what works for them. No exceptions. :)

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Very ture Mark, the key word is "dedicate"! It doesn't depend on any talent, IQ, physical strength, age, gender, race, religion, wealth, or health! :cheer:

If you work "hard" at it, you will eventually get it. "No exceptions!" :)
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35786

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DaveJaVu,

Have you had any experience with cognitive training? If so, do you believe it will be usefull in golf and the learning process that takes place?

I also was interested in language learning abilities and how they may also apply to learning the golf swing. Any thoughts?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35829

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While trying to see the swing motion from the point of naturalism, the word syncraniztion popped up.

I am not refering to the explanation, or physics, unless interested, Synchronization in Systems with Complex Multimode Dynamics
Alexander Balanov, Natalia Janson, Dmitry Postnov and Olga Sosnovtseva, but merely the visual, and natural motion of body parts.

Ben Hogan and Bobby Jones shared two elements of the swing motion that are syncranized and are explained by both as cause and effect. I am refering to the lower body motion and the effect it has on the upper body, specifically the left knee and right elbow, respectively.

The lower body, starting with the knees and hip was one of the most important things in a swing motion to Hogan. That motion allowed him to achieve the famous right elbow position which brought him into a position to hit.



Bobby Jones offers the effect of the left foot and knee motion, it's effects on the hips, allowing the arms free passage and specifically explaind the importance of the right elbow at impact.



Another element of the swing motion , similar with both, is the back sliding, as Bobby Jones calls it and back shifting of Hogan as some people have refered to Hogan's lateral motion. I believe these three elemnts must be syncranized, whether we believe our motion is natural, Bobby Jones, or mechanical, manufactured, as Hogan.





and from the same video above, at about 45-52, back sliding explanation.

I believe they are more similar and natural than different or manufactured, just arrived at, differently. :)

My point here is not that we must achieve these positions, but that when we swing our arms, these position happen naturally and are syncranized without us having to think about them. We can use these observations as tools to detect an unbalanced, unnatural or biomechanically unsound motion. Just thinking?


Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: sp
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35856

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
DaveJaVu,

Have you had any experience with cognitive training? If so, do you believe it will be usefull in golf and the learning process that takes place?

I also was interested in language learning abilities and how they may also apply to learning the golf swing. Any thoughts?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Hi Mark,

I've touched on Cognitive Learning in other sports, there was a great deal written concerning Tigers golfing education, sitting in the push chair while Earl Woods practiced. I lot of research has been done in increasing muscle size and strength by purely imaging performing an exercise.

Personally I believe it cannot be discounted in golf, due to the anecdotal evidence from many great players. They describe mentally playing shots and rounds of golf, imaging the ball flight of every shot they play. I would imagine they did something similar during their golf lessons. From the learning perspective it would need to be used in the correct way. If you have a routine or a specific series or move that you use, rehearsing it mentally at regular intervals will not do you any harm. It may even speed up the "absorbtion" of the information. It's worth reading some of the Memory improvement work by Tony Buzan, he teaches how information can be remembered better if a regular review is done.
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35863

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DaveJaVu,

Thanks for the post.

In the past, a study was conducted in which 10 players were allowed to shoot free throws for a wk and 10 more were only to think about shooting free throws. Both gruops were of equall skill to begin with.
The gruop that did not physically shoot free throws performed better when both gruops acyually shot free throws.

Both gruops were of equall skill to begin with.

Nicklaus made a short movie of each shot and then played it out, and Mehlhorn would sometimes play the entire round in his head, and rarely had to use a different club than what he had planned for.

Personally, I have not thought that far ahead. I am just now working on picturing the flight, and the intensity to produce the flight of the ball as my only swing thought.

When I practice my swing, I will spend a certain amount of time on technique, timming and try to repeat those motions in my head while I am at home . Or simply practice a half throw with a sofball for the same feel and tympo.

I am not sure how much this will benifit, or improve my game but so far I am still improving. I have gone from a 26 handicap, down to a 10 in 8 months. Most of that was from getting away from the matts and onto real grass and work on short game.

I know I will be hitting the so called wall soon , wrt, to improvement and will have to find ways to improve and refine my practice, so any suggetions would be appreciated :)

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35872

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
DaveJaVu,

Thanks for the post.

In the past, a study was conducted in which 10 players were allowed to shoot free throws for a wk and 10 more were only to think about shooting free throws. Both gruops were of equall skill to begin with.
The gruop that did not physically shoot free throws performed better when both gruops acyually shot free throws.

Both gruops were of equall skill to begin with.

Nicklaus made a short movie of each shot and then played it out, and Mehlhorn would sometimes play the entire round in his head, and rarely had to use a different club than what he had planned for.

Personally, I have not thought that far ahead. I am just now working on picturing the flight, and the intensity to produce the flight of the ball as my only swing thought.

When I practice my swing, I will spend a certain amount of time on technique, timming and try to repeat those motions in my head while I am at home . Or simply practice a half throw with a sofball for the same feel and tympo.

I am not sure how much this will benifit, or improve my game but so far I am still improving. I have gone from a 26 handicap, down to a 10 in 8 months. Most of that was from getting away from the matts and onto real grass and work on short game.

I know I will be hitting the so called wall soon , wrt, to improvement and will have to find ways to improve and refine my practice, so any suggetions would be appreciated :)

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
.

Well Mark,
like all the best ideas this will sound simple, but putting it into practice takes a great deal of effort, tenacity, "self honesty" and constant monitoring.

Take your current practice routine and strip out all the "half hearted" shot's, never hit a ball unless you have fully committed to your shot selection, visualization, setup routine etc. Take Faldo's advice and always play a course in your mind when on the driving range. Go from hitting a couple of hundred ball's in a session down to 100, hit 30 to warm up (stick to the above). Then proceed to play the course in your mind. Take X minutes in between each shot and slow the whole practice down. Never repeat a shot if it doesn't work out, imagine what you would have to do if that had happened on the course and play the next shot (even if it means playing a little punch shot from under imaginary trees).

Do this until your practice session becomes as important as a round of golf, take note of your good & poor shot's and start building a list. After a month or so look for patterns in the list, is there a particular shot that never comes off, or do you always nail a particular shot with every club. Take your time and compare the best and worst shots in your bag, this isn't going to make you more confident with your worst shot, but it will prevent you from hiding weakness's in your game.

Improving the worst shot:
Taking a couple of hundred ball's "machine gunning" the same shot over and over again can be seen on every driving range. But as I mentioned in an early post there is a high % of wasted effort and a low % of Positive Practice.

For example say you have a tendency to slice when you are trying to hit a narrow fairway with your driver. You have an idea that it's because you get too tense and try to control the club by muscling it. You continue telling yourself in those situations to relax and on the range you don't seem to have the same trouble. So what's the fix? You can learn to relax under normal circumstances and during "friendly" games you have a good chance of pulling off the shot. But under high stress or loss of concentration the slice creeps back in; this becomes very confusing as you thought you had it fixed. The problem was never fully identified in the first instance, the relaxation just masked the issue and allowed some part of the body to make a quick correction somewhere in the swing.

An alternative approach to fixing this issue is to first make it harder!
Put yourself in a setup position that is going to increase the slice, try to slice that ball as far as possible. Monitor how much your stance is changing as the slice becomes wilder and wilder, when you get to your maximum slice stop everything and examine your max slice position and go through the swing. Now snap back to your more orthodox setup and find your straight shot, examine this position and swing. Now go back to the max slice position and carve one, then back to straight shot.

Alternate between the 2 swings and really examine the difference's.

Then try to hit a straight shot from your Max Slice position, notice how much extra (Hands, body, weight transfer) you have to make to pull that shot off. Realize this would be impossible 99% of the time. Try to Slice from your straight shot position, understand what happens to you and where your focus should be to avoid these mistakes.

When you have fully understand the Good Part's and the Bad, use some of the Memory techniques to absorb this as feel. 1 way is to link all the Good Parts with feelings of great pleasure, it could be as simple as looking down the Fairway. The green grass, the trees blowing, the fresh air, It smell's great, it feel's great and everything about it makes you feel fantastic. Your Good setup becomes part of this feel rather than the mechanical thought process.

The bad part's especially the initial poor setup can be linked to anything you dislike, The setup feels like stepping in Dog $%^T, in fact you can smell it (and feel free to go further). It just feels wrong and you really want to feel the opposite way again.

This way you can help build an aversion to poor concentration , you know that Gut Feeling when something just isn't right. Well this is one way you can create a "golfing gut", if you play enough golf this will also happen after many years of hitting good and bad shot's. But why wait for "Nature" to run it's course, when we can give it a helping hand.

So the bottom line is don't mask weakness' in your game by machine gunning ball's on a range. Be honest with yourself and work on identifying them.

When you become good at something, make the practice more difficult give yourself a hurdle to get over. After all we advance through overcoming adversity, not sitting in a "warm bath" of self delusion. I sat in there for many years, finally the "pruney" skin left my A$$ when I left the range and practiced more positively.
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35888

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DaveJaVu,

Thanks for the post

Of all my years or competition and learning from those better than me, I always noticed the best one had the same routine, every single time they performed, no matter what the sport. Sometimes they spent as much time on the routine as they did their technique. This routine was sometimes , on competition days, from the moment they woke up, or even the night before, ie, dinner and bed time.

Obviously, I am not there yet, in golf, anyway, but I am always looking for an edge. :)

I was wondering if you had any thoughts or practice routines/ tips on improving putting?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35891

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
DaveJaVu,

Thanks for the post

Of all my years or competition and learning from those better than me, I always noticed the best one had the same routine, every single time they performed, no matter what the sport. Sometimes they spent as much time on the routine as they did their technique. This routine was sometimes , on competition days, from the moment they woke up, or even the night before, ie, dinner and bed time.

Obviously, I am not there yet, in golf, anyway, but I am always looking for an edge. :)

I was wondering if you had any thoughts or practice routines/ tips on improving putting?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Well 1 major point I haven't mentioned yet is planning your way around the course. Everyone has been told the same advice but very few actually do it. Giving yourself a written plan is not a bad place to start.

Putting has taken me through more ups and downs than I care to mention. But I finally became comfortable with an approach after 2 incident's.

1. As I walked of the 18th hole after missing my 8th birdie attempt and having more 3 putts than I will ever admit to. One of the foursome asked if I had a putting mat at home, "Yes I use it daily". "Burn that peice of $%&, you look more robotic than Bender off Futurama" was his reply.

2. Played with a 10 Hcapper who's swing was average, but could drop them in from 20 feet, made sure I played with him a couple of more times and studied him closely. His stroke was smooth but not perfect, he read the line from 3 different points. He was meticulous about lining up the mark on the ball with his read. He placed his putter behind the ball very carefully to ensure his alignment was set. He then aligned his stance to the putter.

His read technique was, Read the Speed, Read the break from below, Read the break from Above. When you have the break set, understand that all you have to do is putt to the break at the right speed.

My additions
Forget the ball going in the hole.
Forget about trying to swing your putter on a perfect arc or straight line.
Have a couple of practice swings just imagining the speed, the feel of the contact and the ball rolling through the break.
Have a small gap between putter and ball, fixate the vision on that tiny peice of grass and just putt.

This removed a lot pressure and technical confusion out of my putting, it turned my short game around very quickly. 90% read and 10% physical putting

Read Cameron Strachan's site (he taught Aarron Baddley), it's a similar approach.
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35904

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1lovegolf24 wrote:
Secret,

By the 22nd frame Hogan club face appears closed, not by the body, but by the left hand?



I have long suspected this. This is an early assumption of what I believe he did, but could never figure out the dynamics of the grip that made it work in a full swing :(

I believe I have a good idea how he did it using the loose right hand grip in the fingers.

Here is another look at the squaring of the club and wrt, syncranization, we can see the dynamics of Hogan's pivot secret B)

i97.photobucket.com/albums/l235/drewspin...uences/HoganB1-1.gif

My point of the last video is that once I am able to square the face, no matter how one does this, the swing is done, and the pivot and or right foot is the last dynamics available to the motion, everything else is set. At least from the mental point of what influence we have on the swing.


BTW, I am not advocating anyone copy or swing like Hogan, just observing how we can observe ourselves and what options may be available to help us understand our own motion and how we work.

For example. I believe Hogan was hell bent on closing the face from a wide open slice position, and I understand why. However,I can do the same thing with the face already closed, never opening the face, and swing as hard as I want.

Two different ways of doing the opposite to get the club face squared dynamically. Hogan, IMO, knew that trying to close the face and hook it intentionally, from a complete open face will produce the fade. The grip and hips were instrumental also inprevented him from hooking too.

I , on the other hand, close the face 22 degrees at address, and maintain that feel, knowing that if I swing hard, the face will open up automatically to square. From there, grip and hips will determine fade or draw.

Furthermore, if we look at Hogan's clubface when he squares it, it will go to 22 degrees closed at impact without the dynamics of his swing doing it's job and opening the face. :)

I just preferred to cut out the opening and drastic closing of the club face in my motion because I am built differently and can generate all the power I need fro a 3/4 swing. It is also asier for me to visualize and execute that feel.

I truely believe, once we figure out the dynamics of the club, our natural swing motion,and how we can square the club face naturally and dynamically, we can use the grip, stance and hips to produce the desired shot and hit as hard as we want without fear.

That is what I am working on based on what I feel and what I see , and what I see in Hogan's action that I try to use in my own motion. :)




Mark, 1lovegolf24

PS This was from an annonymous poster, I quote: "Also, on the hands...this looks low to me and I don't see how anyone can think there is no active firing of the hands from this position where the hands are even with the ball yet the clubhead is behind the hands.'

End quote

I just love it when people talk about the hands in the swing motion. :)Unfortunately, this is not what happens. Hogan does not fire the hands, but merly changes the angles of which he is swinging in order to take advantage of his pivot. Believe it or not, the club will actually swing down from that point without any effert from the hands. The pivot enforces even more into the swing and new angle created to power it even more and ensure a square face, naturally and dynamically.

Use of hands, yes. Fireing of hands, no.Use of hips, yes, firing of hips, no.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: Ps
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Re: 1lovegolf24's Ultimate Secrets 2 years 2 months ago #35923

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Was Hogan a magician, illusionist, or just a self taught naturalist? We may never know for sure.



However, with all seriousness and wrt to syncranization, or simlpe natural ,biomechanical timming, I pose the question. Where and when does Hogan make the club appear to vanish?

Saccades of the eys will follow a line to it's end and back, before we can blink, however, in a circular motion, we are compelled to follow the motion to it;s end. Why? Is it magaic, or just a trick that is played out right in front of our eyses and their is nothing we can do about it?

That my friends is why feel is real and we should not believe everything we see, and nothing we heard :laugh:

Good Luck and keep diggin

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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