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powerfade66 wrote:



Powerfade,

I believe you have actually offered a Secret, without even stating it was a Secret and one that I have hoped to accomplish some day. That is hitting a draw or fade, using the same stance.

Jack Nicklaus said just chaged ball position for height and grip for shape, and use the same swing motion. Hogan used the same swing motion, but never changed ball position, and or grip, as far as I know, but figured out something quite unique. That is what I saw in his genius, but easier seen than done.

As I mentioned before, I am not involved as much as before, trying to figure someones secret out, but if your willing to offer what it is that helps you draw and fade, from the same stance, I would be interested in that.

I will say this, I like the way you bring the hnads through.



Thanks again.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
,

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Powerfade has a nice powerful action. He knows how to swing the clubhead after 20 years of "addition and subtraction"!

Mark, on draw and fade, once you have a good control on your swing in terms of consistency, then drawing or fading will be relatively easy from the same stance and ball position. The simplest way I can think of is just opening or closing the face by a few degrees at address. You can also do it with your hands, arms, shoulders, hips, legs, or mind!

Tony Brown asked this question, I quote:

"For right handed golfers where is the correct placement of the handle,should it run at an angle or should it be straight across at the base of the finger joints? I am having a little problem now club is running at to much of an angle poor iron shots all are fat and weak seem to stand the club up at impact,where should it lie in the hand? "

I invited Mr. Brown to an open dialogue to anyone who may have some advice and or opinions based on their experiences, or what has worked for them.

The reason I did this is becuase, since studying the swing motion, and golf motion, i knew where I had to look, in order to improve. i knew the hands and the grip they executed was the key.

By no means do I have the grip figured out and have been working on several things, wrt, to the grip and the control it provides for the swing motion.


@Cy,

I especially liked your last post, since I have tried different combinations or what you have suggested. More on that later.


@ Mr. Brown and Cy,

Is the grip, by ones own definition, influenced by a general position oriented placement of the shaft in the hands, or a matter of what pressures, exurted by the hands that will control the club face?

I would really like to hear opinions, based on the question above and or what they have implemented into their swings that work for them.

I truely believe, we all have a lot more in common than one thinks, and by sharing our experiences, we will improve. Simple as that.

Thanks,

Good Luck, and Keep Diggin

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Mr. Brown,

Here is some resident info on the grip , wrt to Hogan and the grip in general. Very important info.



BTW, I have seen personally, Mike Maves in action and what he advocates or his perspective translate into his swing, and the results.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Thanks Mark will work on this today,just what I was looking for.

Thanks Cy.

Mark. For fades there are many feels but the main one if I was to put it into words is to feel more face on to the ball and level for fades and a little bit of tilt for draws. No change in clubface, alignment, ball position etc at address. From those broad concepts I use feel and experience to work out what I want to do with the head to produce a path and face combination for the direction, trajectory and curve. The feel of level or tilted puts me within the workable parameters for variations of fade and draw. I think it's once you have these under control before you take the club back that misses are very small because you're not fighting for a shot that's not really possible from certain body positions without a lot of hand action. Speaking of hand action, when in the right position you feel like you can actually use more because your margin for error increases dramatically when face and path match your intent. It's when your feel for path and face is out of kilter that inconsistency can't really be avoided ie feeling like your path is neutral when in reality it's excessively inside or outside. The ball flight will reveal this. Once it is going where you feel it should from what you have done during your swing then you can really paint some pictures in the sky. A couple of days ago I was practicing driver and trying to get my flight to be more of a parabola and achieved the apparent contradiction of much less spin and also much more hang time and ball speed. The idea for how I did this came about after watching a long putting lecture on youtube. The ways in which the little game can also apply to the big game is part of what makes this sport a constant fascination.

1lovegolf24 wrote:


I think the grip is a key fundamental and it is the easiest fundamental to get it right / "naturally". We have seen all kinds of grips on tour from weak (like Mr. Hogan) to super strong (like Tommy "Two Gloves"), or two finger overlap like Furyke, baseball grip like Moe, etc.

I believe the most important functions of the grip are "holding" and "hinging" actions. The finger pressures are very subjective and depend on how strong you hands are. But generally the pressure should be light but firm. No looseness in the grip. During the swing, you should control your hitting impulse and try to avoid ACTIVELY increasing your grip pressure to hit the ball. If you can't control your hit impulse then try hitting the ball with your RIGHT/BACK shoulder as hard as you can!

Mr. Brown,

They don't call it the vault for nothing. Even with the contents being of extreme value and knowledge, their is no lock.

The door is always open for our diggin pleasure.

Also, if you get time, check out the episodes on Abe Mitchell. Great stuff.

Good Luck and please share what you learn.


Mark, 1lovegolf24

Powerfade,

Thanks. Great explanation as to how , or one wat to achieve the results we want.

I was wondering, if you have some time, explain a little bit more about what you wrote below? Very interesting. Also, could you share the link to the putting lecture that you mentioned and how it helped you achive the parabola shot shape?

Powerfade wrote:

"Speaking of hand action, when in the right position you feel like you can actually use more because your margin for error increases dramatically when face and path match your intent. It's when your feel for path and face is out of kilter that inconsistency can't really be avoided ie feeling like your path is neutral when in reality it's excessively inside or outside. The ball flight will reveal this

The idea for how I did this came about after watching a long putting lecture on youtube. The ways in which the little game can also apply to the big game is part of what makes this sport a constant fascination."[/quote]

End quote

Thanks again powerfade66

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Cy wrote:



Cy,

I experimented a little with club face alighnment, and or grip, and found some good results and feedback. However, tempo of swing has to be addressed also.

So, wrt to grip, and following some of Abe Mitchells, methods, at address, I have tired to find the perfect CCW club face wind.

I try to maintain this wind, all the way through the swing. The dynamics of the club will resist this wind and try to go CW. here is where the grip pressure are important to me. It is difficult to explain which fingers pressure where and how much pressure they exert. it pretty much happens dynamically based on my intent to controll the posiiton of the face. That being constantly wounf CCW.

I actuall feel like the toe is goint to strike the ball first, but I know the dynamics of the toe will open the face perfectly, every time.

From that feel and understanding, I am going to try and implement what powerfede has succeeded with in his swing, wrt, to fading and drawing.

So, with what info you have provided, understanding some club dynamics that I feel, I should be able to make shots, using the same grip and ball placement.

Also, with what powerfade66 has shared, wrt, to ball flight, I can begin observing and adjusting, with natural feel and intent as my guides.

I truely believe, that throught understanding the hands and their feel and control they provide, we can allow the rest of the body to simply fall into place.

Thanks guys

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


I don't think you want a conscious control of the clubface with your hands. The CF of your pivot/swing should do the job.
It is interesting that there are infinite variety of backswings but every great ball striker must obey the physics of ball striking with a club. Hence at impact, all great ball strikers almost look the same. The club and the ball doesn't care whether it is Ben Hogan or Gerry Hogan!

Cy wrote,

"I don't think you want a conscious control of the clubface with your hands. The CF of your pivot/swing should do the job.
It is interesting that there are infinite variety of backswings but every great ball striker must obey the physics of ball striking with a club. Hence at impact, all great ball strikers almost look the same. The club and the ball doesn't care whether it is Ben Hogan or Gerry Hogan! "

Cy ,

I agree. A conscious thought of controling the club is not a natural one for me.

The pressures applied to the shaft, by my hands are the same pressures I feel in a throw or swing motion, as well as the same motions. I believe this action is how we control the weight and create power, naturally.

Being a naturalist, I have only my past experiences to guide me. Any explanation, as the one above is only a conscious one in explanation , not execution for me..

Anything I have to consciously think of, does not work for me. If there is one exception, it is to concentrate on the natural feel and my intent, or intensity and the weight in my hand. I am still experimenting with rythm and tempo.

I must admit,on feel shots, I must always remind myself to follow through..

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Mark, if you look at any pros body positions at impact and follow through, they are far from "natural" and normal positions. Tommy Two Gloves swings look like an snake winding and striking!

I think most bodies (especially older ones) don't want to follow the swing's extreme body positions because of lack of flexibilities, range of motion, and strength. Of course, during the swing It is very easy for the hands to take over and let the body behind without follow through. That is in essence the fundamental problem of well over 95% of average golfers.

Cy,

You make some good points.

From a full pitching wedge on up, I don't pay attention to the follow thru. I try to use the same temo, rythm and or effort and usually have no problem.

However, my short chips and pitch shots have been coming up short, and in some cases even putts.

Sometimes, for unknown reasons, natural motion short circuits and I must remind myself what it should feel like.

So I have been just saying the words, "follow thru" and make sure the hands go through with the hips.


As far as getting old. My BS and follow thru are getting shorter, even though I am still flexible and I have never had much of a BS anyway.

All of the positions the pros get into, in their Bs and follow through, no way, now how for me, to much effort and unnecessary to me. Ouch!

Thanks Cy

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Mark,got to try new grip today and a little better contact with the irons,held the club with less angle in left if any,not to many fat shots and added a half club due to better contact this part is going to sound strange but the feeling I got was all four knuckles of the left hand were facing the ground not just the index knuckel or no bowing up of left wrist.

Tony Brown wrote:



Tony Brown,

Awsome.

Other than what a grip feels like and what amount of control I feel over the clubhead, I cannot comment on exactly why you have achieved success, in a technical sense.

Hopefully, someone with more experience with why grips, both weak or strong, cause differnt effects will chime in and offer some additional guidence.

However, I will say this, and as Cy mentioned earlier, a grip that allows the wrists to hinge naturally is very important to me. I , as a naturalist, do not think about wrist hinging, but understand how important they are in the swing.

Good Luck my friend and keep us updated. Golf can be fun.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


End quote

Thanks again powerfade66

Mark, 1lovegolf24[/quote]

i responded to your question with a long answer Mark. i'm not here for an endless monologue essentially with myself.

search for youtube putting lecture and it's the first two results.

i'd give up on controlling it with your hands if I was you. increase tension in the hands and you slow everything down and pretty much change the radius of the swing from the length of the club plus the length of the body to simple the distance from your hands to the ball. you feel extra hand movement through heightened body movement but NOT through the hands doing anything themselves. they are not the source.

powerfade66 wrote:


Good point powerfade. The virtual club includes the body and the arms.

Can't you compress the ball using your "hands" like this guy?

Powerfade66,

Thanks for all the info you have shared, I really appreciate your time.


We all know what does what. Where the power comes from, how we transfer energy, etc.


I am not trying to say otherwise. I am trying to share how, by simply observing what the hands do in the swing, I have, almost overnight, changed by power, accuracy, repeatability.

The club essentially is my hand. I cannot explain it any better or differently. I don't think about anything else in the swing. I just concentrate on the feel of the weight in my hands, and where they need to go.

I, like any other person gets nervous sometimes. When we are nervous, muscles do no work automatically or naturally. They are temporarily paralyzed. We become unbalanced. That is the reason for conscious training of natural motion by going through the motions.

That is all I am trying to say and share. Any questions I ask is merely out of curiousity and respect for how someone else has figured out what works best for them.


Mark, 1lovegolf24

Cy wrote:



Cy,

My understanding of strenght, is that we first increase muscle tinsel trength, then tendons and ligaments, and lastly the bones will strengthen. When we lose our collective strenght, the last to strengthen is the last to weaken.

My muscle strength is far in excess of what is needed to swing and hit a ball 300 plus yards, and my power, needed to compress the ball, comes from the stress I put on my tendons, ligaments, and my ability of my bones to not break from the torque my hands apply to the shaft and the resulting inertia and dynamics of the clubhead pushing back.

My muscles can only swing as fast as my tendons, ligaments and bones, can handle.

So with that in mind, I will say yes we can compress the ball in the way that he breaks those bricks.

BTW, I snapped my 3 wood, at about 3-4 inches from the butt of the shaft, twice, from the pressures of my hands torqueing on the shaft. If my bones were not strong enough, and it's supporting cast, my wrist would be mush by now.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

As a self taught naturalist, I was excited to get my book, and CD's ,"GOLF SECRETS EXPOSED", By Bill Melhorn and Bobby Shave.

Here is a small quote from the book, wrt to Melhorn as a teacher.

I quote:

"His them was using naturalness of movement. He said we move the same way whether we throw a ball or hit it, swing an ax or grass whip so why should golf be any different."

End quote:

Melhorn has set the example of what is possible. He was 70 yrs ahead of his time. I think it is time we begin to take a look back at one of the original naturalists and all the wisdom he had to offer.

I am far from the first to see his brilliance and I hope I won't be the last.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin

Mark, 1lovegolf24

I just had some time to go over some of Melhorns concepts of verbalizing Natural Motiion. He truely was ahead of his time.

Is there any other naturalists out there, or anyone who has figured out their own Ultimate Secret?


If you are not, or have not found what you are looking for, maybe it is worth taking a look at. I have tried for two years to implement what I felt was natural or at least associate motions I new how to execute into a golf swing. My ax swing, raquet ball, handball tennis, ping pong , throw, whip, sling, staff,discus , hammering, hatchet, sledge hammer, rock skipping, walking, all natural and usefull motions of association.

What took so long to get better, for me? Two things. First and most important for me was realiizing that the golf swing is no more difficult than any other swing or throw motion. We have to trust our natural motion and our ability to execute it.
Second and almost as equally as important, is understanding the grip. No matter what motion we associate with, what implement we try to master, the grip provides balance and control of the weight we are swinging or throwing.

One side note, and this was probably my biggest mistake and time consuming, counter productive road block was trying to explain why we are able to do what we do. Understanding why we do what we do is OK, but not necessary to execute what we have been doing and have known all our lives.

If Ben Hogan and Tommy Amour, though Bill Melhorn was the best, from tee to green they ever saw, well, maybe his work, ability to teach, is worth taking a look at.

Good Luck and Keep Diggin


Mark, 1lovegolf24

Pardon me Mark, but all you're saying are just lip service. There's nothing useful in it. Golf is mechanics. Period.

svsvincenzo wrote:



Vincenzo,

As an athlete, I agree. Mechanics have their place. I believe the mechanics of any motion is usefull in the explanation of why Natural motion works.

However, understanding the "how" something works is not as important as observing how something feels. Understanding why something works is not transferable into execution of motion, We can only learn by doing. By feel, trial and error.

As far as anything being lip service, I have no problem with that comment. I have made strides in my golf swing and have the scores, handicap, witnesses to prove that with what I have come to believe or have believed in, has changed my golf swing almost overnight.

Two yrs, of studying or obseving mechanics, dissecting the swings of others, looking at the pieces,(effects), hitting close to 100,000 balls, yielded nothing but frustration, and pain to my body. Until I started looking in the right places, the cause, (hands, intent, natural feels of motion), I am afraid I would have wasted yrs trying to manufacute an unnatural swing, by trying to coordinate all the pieces, one by one, guessing, copying others and never truely Owning my Natural Swing Motion. Ever!

I have a lifetime of experinces that prove exactly what Melhorn and Bobby Shave have put forth. I don't have to believe or have faith. I just needed to trust my initial gut feeling. I didn't do that, and that was the biggest lesson I had to learn. I will not make that mistake again.

Call it lips service or nonsensicle, drabble, or whatever. I have no quarrell with anyone, or method, style that anyone wishes to spend their time sudying. That is not my intention. I am sharing what works for me and what has worked for those that came before me and before them.

Good Luck my friend, Gotta get to the course.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

svsvincenzo wrote:


The mental side has nothing to do with it...ow