Secret In The Dirt - Golf's Greatest Social Network

Dave Ja Vu

Thanks for the post.

For some of the same reasons, I choose a small course, that I could access, both course and range, freely, and for as long as I want.

I practice mostly on the course, and most days, almost exclusively. Half the time, I am alone with the course to myself. Freezing temps - 100 plus degree weather, drive away most paying customers. I find this more productive than beating balls on the range.

I also have an improvement plan, that was graciously offered to help me improve the most important aspects of the game and is time based on how important each aspect of ball striking is to improving ones abilities on the course.

It has been instrumental in my ability to manage the course and take advantage of percentages and shot selection.

I still cannot say enough as to how important understanding natural motion has been to my improvement.

The Secret truely is in the Dirt, but you have to DIG, it out.

Good Luck my friend

Mark, 1lovegolf24

"Nothing gives you accuracy but naturalness and judgement"

Bill Mehlhorn

Love that one liner from his book, Golf Secrets Exposed,.


Good Luck and Keep Diggin

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Bill is right, Mark. But what seems natural to him might be artificial to you and me.
The fact is over 90% of golfers are bogey golfers or worse.
Naturally, the majority have "bogey" consistency and accuracy at best!
Therefore, It seems to me playing par golf may require some artificial and "unnatural" move. Just saying ....

Cy wrote:


Hi Cy,

I have had that thought many, many times and have traveled many paths in search of that mystic, unnatural motion that works.. Unfortunately and to my despair, I have not found it, nor do I wish to continue searching.

For me, it does not exist.

There is better than that out there, and it has been proven.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Based on what Cy has offered as, "Just Saying", I thought I might offer a question in response.

Can anyone offer an unnatural motion, wrt, the golf swing, that is considered a fundamental to a repeatable swing motion?

Mark, 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


I think the word Natural in itself is the problem, by definition something Natural is "existing in or formed by nature ( opposed to artificial): i.e. a natural bridge."

But when a movement is learned and absorbed into the system, does it by definition become natural. Is the golfswing or actually the game of golf found in nature?

When someone is described as a natural, or in sentences like "they practiced until it became natural" the use of the word natural is incorrect. It is a colloquialism that has wormed it's way into the English language. The definition that someone was born with a natural gift for golf or any other dicsapline has the connotation that the person could perform the task from birth "Naturally" or with very little practice.

You seem to have found another way of misusing the term, you've researched and practiced the golfswing for 2 years, but then want to reverse the process by naming it your Natural motion. I'm afraid the boat has sailed, the motion you are using is a Learned Responce to you wanting to strike the golf ball.

We learn to cover our mouths when we yawn or noses when we sneeze, but these are not natural movements. They are learned responces to event's, you wouldn't see a chimpanze reaching for a kleenex unless he has been taught to do so. You wouldn't be approaching your swing at the ball the way you do, without the past 2 years of practice.

It would be better to say that you use a blended motion derived from various sources, you can perform some parts of it as a fluid reaction to your intention and as the moves prior dictate.

Don't take this as a personal slur, it's more about explaining how you do what you do

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Hitting a golf ball from inside the target line as oppose to going over the top and coming across. The great teacher Percy Boomer called this Bogey # 1 in golf.

Hitting from the top and casting seems to me is a "natural" move of all average golfers.

I agree with Dave's point. I am a "natural" juggler and soccer player!

BTW, When you see "100% natural" label on a product, you know that it is full of shot!

Dave Ja Vu,

Thanks for the post.

I understand your point and agree that the use of the word, "natural" has not been used accurately here, in my previous post.

Natural motion or movement is any motion we execute without any instruction. Now these motions may be learned, through a response, or necessity, but we learn to execute it without any instruction.

For example, is walking a learned response to wanting to get somewhere, or were we taught how to walk?Reaching to grab something, hold something, throw it, lift it, swing it, same question?

What I am trying to point out is the difference in that a vast amount of what is being taught in golf, vs, what my learned experience has taught me, wrt, to the swing motion has caused me a great deal of wasted time trying to conform to this conventional wisdom.

For example, a straight left arm in the BS is taught to beginners in golf and something I heard a million times. To me, that is UNATURAL, since it has to be taught and unfortunately is not necessary, for beginners or pros to maintain a straight left arm in the BS. Calvin Pete could not even straighten his left arm if he wanted to and was for many years the most accurate ball striker on tour.

Wrist hinge or cocking, is another one that is taught and debated endlessly. When do we cock the wrist, how long do we hold wrist angles, when do we release, how much more power can we get form doing so? All topics of debate.

The fact is, this will all happen naturally, without thought, and without instruction, if we base our swing on natural motion or movent from experience we learned naturally.

For example, we don't need to instruct someone on how to swing a rope, but you will see the all the necessary motions used in a golf swing are being executed without thought or instruction.

You can see a perfectly executed pivot, although a small one. You observe excellent naturally timed wrist cock and release. Perfect elbow and shoulder motion.

Furthermore, a throw motion is nothing more than an overhead swing motion.

Now please tell me anyone that has to be instructed on how to swing their arms. Swinging and throwing, which I believe are the same motion, is no harder than simply swinging ones arms in a circle. We have been pivoting and swinging our arms our whole lives.

You may define this as a learned response to necessity to move forward, and I have no problem with that.
What I am searching for is a way to build and own my swing by implementing my experinces I have spent a lifetime executing, naturally or otherwise, without any thought and or instruction.
That is naturalism. Simply using our naturally learned motions and implementing them into a swing motion and a golf motion.

I am not saying that shooting par or having a scratch handicap is that easy. What i am saying is golf should not be that hard and like anything else in life, what skill level we wish to obtain is determined by how much time we are willing to spend implementing our natural motion into the golf swing.

So please do not take this personal, as i have not taken yours.

As for the past two yrs researching the swing motion, studying, every part of the body and it's part in the swing motion, other than knowing what not to do, worthless for me.

This is how i see it , in a nut shell.

"The Secret is in the Dirt. Take a shovel, dig a hole, throw all the dirt to the right.and then fill it back in throwing all the dirt to your left. Do this everyday before you practice your golf swing".

Thanks

Good Luck and Keep Diggin

Mark , 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Mark, that might be a secret to learn shoveling snow in the winter!
BTW, can you shovel with speed of 100 mph?

Cy wrote:



Cy,

You got me there, even though we both know the hands do not swing 100 mph.

However, that brings to mind a question I have asked several times , but with no reply. What is the slowest swing speed that can produce a 300 yrd drive. my guess it is much lower than evryone thinks

BTW Cy, earlier you posted this, I quote:

"Hitting from the top and casting seems to me is a "natural" move of all average golfers."

End quote.

Casting is one of those made up terms for motion some like to innacurately describe bad timming of our pivot and hands

Once we use proper terms, or simple ones like lift, drop, rotate, understand what really happens in our natural swing, ie arm elbows , shoulders, etc, we have no thoughts of casting or not casting..

here is a video i did quite awhile back. It was my earliest ideas on what we really did in the swing motion , naturally.

The very first motion is all that happens with the arms. Lift, drop. No thoughts of straight left arm, wrist hinge, open, closed club face, forearm rotation, sup and pronation. Now the pivot is even easier to demonstrate. Put those together. Easy peasy , lemon squeezy



So what have I missed?

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Didn't read anything the slightest bit offensive

Even swinging a rope or making a throwing motion is something that must be learned, before we where taught how to speak our entire view of the world was made up from what could perceive through our 5 senses. Remember before we learned language our thought process was not verbal, it was something else. Everything we saw, smelled, touched, tasted and heard was absorbed into our memory. Some memories gave us the "Don't touch that, eat that, look at that" feeling, of course not as a verbal command but as a "Gut feel" as an aversion. Others good sensual experiences gave us the "seek out" response, "get more of that" feeling or cravings.

To this day no matter how old the person is the largest % of our daily learning is via this sensory feedback loop. Now bringing golf instruction in to the equation gives us a mixture of verbal instruction and physical instructions leading to sensory feedback. But the golf swing needs to be split into various levels of competence before we continue.

Basic Level = The ability to swing the club and hit the ball
Intermediate = The ability to send the ball in the approximate direction.
Competent = The ability to take the skills to a course and play a round of golf
Advanced = The ability to score well and play close to scratch consistently
Extraordinary = The touring Pro's

The view that golf instruction does not work needs to be put into context with the level of skill that is trying to be achieved. Basic, Intermediate and Competent can all be taught. If the Golfer is lucky enough to find a teacher who's system, matches both their physical capabilities and is communicated in a way that's suits their learning style. Then this golfer will attain the higher levels, other factors need also to be present. The individual's commitment, drive and most importantly the correct circumstances/opportunity. The latter being different for everyone, some people need adversity and struggle others need the whole shebang and comfort.

Everything you have done in the last 2 years is not a waste, you may not have gained the skills you where looking for, but you have learned what DOES NOT work. Learning is not just a matter of finding what works, but it's also about discounting what doesn't. The common phrase of "It took me ten years to become an overnight success" is very apt. The calculation's made on the amount of practice needed for an individual to obtain very high skill levels is 10,000 hours of good / positive practice. If you took a 2 hour training session from the average Joe down at the driving range, there may only be 10 minutes out of that 2 hour session that is of real value. So Average Joe only has another 9,999.9 hours of practice to go.

Now that your looking to develop your swing under your own "Natural" guise, this is the time where you have actually taken responsibility for your golf swing. Taking lessons from a pro or reading various methodologies is handing off responsibility to the teacher and asking them to show you how it's done. In my experience pupils are almost asking for some kind of guaranteed download, like I'm just going to perform some Vulcan Mind Meld and viola the next PGA superstar is on his way. Teaching is meant to be passing down experience to a willing learner, but in Golf it has turned into proving your methodology is sound and works. SITD itself is a brave step forward as teacher's can be held accountable in front of a mass audience for their success or failure, many Pro's just put the PGA certified sign out the front of the shop and rest on their laurels.

The reason I have written my last few post's is not to belittle what you are doing but rather to help you understand that what you are doing is what most other golfers have done in the past and will continue to do in the future. They have not been fortunate enough to find/understand a methodology that is a close enough match to how they need to swing the club. So they start again and begin to work on themselves, they experiment with the best motions for themselves. They learn which body parts to concentrate on to find the best result, they either settle for a level of competence that suits their needs or they continue on trying to achieve the ultimate.

Taking this approach was how I finally got over a sticking point and turned my own game around, interestingly enough it took me around in a full circle. When I "taught myself" and found my swing, I could then understand the finer points of what the books and instructors where trying to get across previously.

Your just at the beginning of a very long road, but at the end you will find a swing that is truly functional and personal to yourself. It will never be anyone else's, it will take some time, Chipping away at 10,000 hours of quality practice requires tenacity and patience, but it will come. It's not our verbal reasoning which needs to understand, but our old sensory feedback loop. It's plods along slowly but once it's got the idea it doesn't forget.

With all that said I think it's my turn to whish you good luck, last piece of advice is to stop digging. You reached the bottom and not found gold, but you noticed that at the bottom of the hole is some good quality bedrock. Start laying courses of bricks on this bedrock and build your swing upon it.

[quote="1lovegolf24" post=35555][quote="Cy" post=35553][quote="1lovegolf24" post=35546]




Cy,

You got me there, even though we both know the hands do not swing 100 mph.

However, that brings to mind a question I have asked several times , but with no reply. What is the slowest swing speed that can produce a 300 yrd drive. my guess it is much lower than evryone thinks

300 yard drive including roll has too many factors in it that can negate swing speed, for a 300 yard carry Trajectoware calculates it at 117 mph. But again there are many club perameters that can be changed to alter the results.

Taken from www.rotaryswing.com/golf-instruction/gol.../golf-ball-speed.php

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Nothing! Looks beautiful! The only thing you need to add is some speed, a little power, some consistency and accuracy, then you're ready to test it on the course. I promise you if you had a missing part or parts, you will know. Knowing that you have some missing parts is the first step. Finding them may take you a few minutes, hours, days, years, or a lifetime.

Cy,

Thanks for the post.

Knowing what parts there are, what we are missing is paramount.

I have, since rebuilding my swing , based on naturalism, have experimented with the pivot more. I heard somewhere, maybe from you, that the power is the pivot and without a good pivot, nothing else fits.

What I am saying is, for the moment, I am spending my only swing thought on a good pivot motion. I have , in the recent past, spent that one thought on swing path and club face, but without a good pivot, I was unable to hit good shots reguarly.

With a good pivot, I feel closer to the ball, see it better, and the other pieces of the puzzle fit better. In every other sport, involving a pivot, I never had to think about it. It seems now I have to.

Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24.

1lovegolf24 wrote:


You're welcome Mark.
I agree with you that a good pivot is the foundation for power and consistency. George Knudson's "natural golf" is all about balanced pivot. I think a good drill is to practice body pivot without a club or arms swing.
I heard that in S. Korea they start teaching beginners body pivot from day one before teaching the grip or the backswing. Without a good stable footwork, the whole swing will be on a shaky and inconsistent foundation.
If you want to study great ball strikers, you only need to focus on their moves from the belt down.
DOCF, ABS, etc. students may call them "ground forces" or "spike forces"!

Cy,

Wrt to the pivot, ie, training and ground forces.

Do you believe, as Mehlhorn does, that we have been training and timming a proper pivot all our lives as we walk?

Also, I believe, having swung an axe for many years, and also competing in the discus and shot put, since junior high, through high school, I have forgotten how important these forces (pivot) are. I guess I took them for granted as being natural, although I spent many a years paying attention to them when I was younger.

One reason I asked the question and why I made the above statement is, I paid a great deal of attention to my rear foot, as prescribed by Sevam1, along with following through or hitting through the ball with that pivot. The results were definately and improved hit and smoothness throughout the swing.

My point is, and in agreement with you, sometimes we must get back to basics, natural or not. Sometimes the engine needs a tune up, so to speak, or maybe my mind and experience keeps writting checks, my body can't cash. Maybe the funds need to be redeposited.

Thanks Cy for the civil conversation, i appreciate your time

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Came across this recently, 5 or so years ago this was 1 of the instructors I didn't get. But after recently watching this I now get what I was missing initially.

The description of the releases is worth watching alone.

DaveJaVu wrote:



DaveJaVu,

Thanks for the video and very timely delivery.

I was at the course today, working on the pivot again, and noticed how the club was reacting to a more fluid motion.

One observation was that the release was eventually happening on it's own due to the better pivot. This is the same feel one would have when swinging an axe. Since the weight of the axe head being substancial, we must keep the right arm bent and in, in order to protect ourselves from back inury. The blade will release on it's own and the power is deependent on the pivot and rotation.

Another observation is the hands always feel more ahead of the club face at impact when paying attention to the pivot and the release.

I have a question maybe yourself or Cy can help me with.

When I get close to impact, and since having swung ana xe for quite some time, I feel a squeeze of the hands, mostly the right. My question is, do either one of you consider this reactionary to the pressure of the lagging club/ axe, or an attempt to accelerate the head or lastly a feel that is actually happening after impact?

Thanks

Mark 1lovegolf24

1lovegolf24 wrote:

Another observation is the hands always feel more ahead of the club face at impact when paying attention to the pivot and the release.

I have a question maybe yourself or Cy can help me with.

When I get close to impact, and since having swung ana xe for quite some time, I feel a squeeze of the hands, mostly the right. My question is, do either one of you consider this reactionary to the pressure of the lagging club/ axe, or an attempt to accelerate the head or lastly a feel that is actually happening after impact?

Thanks

Mark 1lovegolf24[/quote]

I feel that the clubhead is lagging behind and the pressure increases in the right hand to keep a steady hold of the club. My right grip pressure is low in the backswing so I expect it to increase. I'm carefull to keep the pressure away from index and thumb as they can take over. I like the presure to be even across the hand and to remain that way all through impact.

The rest of what you wrote sounds normal

1lovegolf24 wrote:


Yes, I do. There is no doubt in my mind that our brain is capable of a natural and effortless "pivot" like the way we walk. However looking at the average golfer's swings and stats and my own experience says otherwise.
You can develop a natural pivot like walking at 5, 10, or 15 years of age easily like most playing pros but in adulthood learning to pivot doesn't come easy.

As you may know, the average golfer's score is near 100 (i.e. at best a bogey golfer). But the good news is that breaking 80 is only a pivot away!

1lovegolf24 wrote:


I let my hands to feel the cludhead swinging and "passively" control the club. No active forcing, steering, or hitting with the hands.

Cy wrote,

"As you may know, the average golfer's score is near 100 (i.e. at best a bogey golfer). But the good news is that breaking 80 is only a pivot away!"


Cy, thanks for the reply, I like that.

@ Cy and DavejaVu,

Thanks for the replies on the grip pressure feltby the right hands, in a pivot driven release, if you will.

From that point of view and wrt to feel in the hands, is it trial and error from there, , based on results, as to how fast we swing, ie, tempo and or ryhthm?

Also, one more question, wrt, to pivot. The faster I pivot the closer my hands want to be to my body, or else they will fly out........is that why both Hogan and Snead's head drop at impact......for reach?

The reason I ask that question is, the closer my hands are in, the shorter they feel as far as reaching the ball.

BTW, I actually prefer this position, but have never figured out how to get to the ball.

I would really appreciate any help or answrs you can provide.


Here is what I would love to achieve in a golf swing, wrt, to impact and what I really feel comfortable achieveing.




Thanks

Mark, 1lovegolf24

OK Mark,
I'll give you my own take on the golf swing, this is just how I verbalize it and the words fire little feel memories off, when I'm preparing myself for a game or practice. It works for me and is not meant to be the "1 and only" truth. When I've taught individuals in the past and they find their own swing, their personal description is different to mine, but all the elements of the swing as I see it are there.

Looking at the video you want to keep it as simple as possible, a basic pivot leaving you an easy path back to the ball. Then a complete turn through in the downswing striking the ball without trying to manipulate the club with the hands?

My personal "rules"

One of the 1st thing's I taught myself to find was the best position to be in at the top. I don't mean the best top slot as a series of hand or other positions, what I mean is "What is the best way to be to have the best chance at putting the club on the back of the ball while swinging strong/fast". Just like if you had a base ball on top of 1 of those hip high base ball tee's or you where making a Happy Gilmore attempt. You stand still with your arms raised just looking at the ball thinking I'm going to knock the skin of this.
I found a position that suited me and then went back to the initial setup to find the simplest way to get from start to that knock the skin off it position. This all led to working through the swing until I had linked everything together, but without making it mechanical. I have a momentary thought at takeaway and then the swing takes care of itself.

This was part of my learning process.

1. Initial setup, balanced in a stance that put's me in the best athletic position to make a simple shoulder turn to the right. No Pre locking down of feet or knees as this will inhibit my turn. (Like a discus thrower doing the initial back and forth rotations, I want to feel stable on my feet but athletic enough so my ankles can move and the feet can roll).

2. 1st 20 inches of the take away, I want to simply rotate my shoulders without any handsy pick up motion, No pushing up through the legs and absolutely no hips moving laterally to the right. The left shoulder rotates across and downwards, the left hand/wrist is in such a position that remains firm. This firmness pushes the club shaft to the right, the right hand remaining passive is also pushed to the right.

3. Finding the top slot, my left shoulder continues moving to my right until it hits my chin. As the club is being pushed to the right, the head has been gradually lifting off the floor, the speed of the initial turn has put enough momentum in the club head so that it is somewhat lifting itself. The left wrist allows this to happen by maintaining it's firmness but going from a left thumb pointing down at setup. To a thumb up (ie giving the thumbs up to someone) when the grip is just on hip height. Also at the same time the Right hand becomes active, when the "thumbs up" position is forming this applies pressure in the palm of the right hand and the right will naturally grip tighter. The continuing shoulder turn, the left hand push and now the right hand gripping leads to the right arm folding at the elbow. The elbow lifts an amount and all this continues until the top slot is reached. That top slot position for me is a combination of the left hitting it's "thumb up" limit, it can't bend any further back unless I put a large cup in the wrist, the wrist firmness that has been maintained prevents this. The left shoulder will also have reached a position where the back of the shoulder is facing the target.

Because I haven't allowed the right hip to sway to the right I have turned into the right leg, I don't make a huge lower body movement due to having the lower body somewhat relaxed and practicing not to do so.

DaveJaVu.,

Thanks so much for the post and your time

This part really stuck out. You wrote,

"One of the 1st thing's I taught myself to find was the best position to be in at the top."

I also really liked your description of a what one might look for in a good pivot.

Thanks again

Mark, 1lovegolf24