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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=152&Itemid=3"]Building and owning your Swing[/url] Group Forum: Since we all had to start somewhere. I would like to start a group, where all can share their humle beginnings and the path that has lead them to where they are now.

From the first shot to the one that got you hooked. From frustration to triumph. From student to teacher, we all have one thing in common, we all love golf. Personally,1lovegolf.

So with humility, grace,and perciverance, we all have traveled the path to understanding our swing with hopes of owning it.

This group and threads will be dedicated to stories about where we were, where we are and where we want to go. There is no ending, only the journey and those we wish to share it with.

TOPIC: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp

Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35694

Hi, I'm a newbie and have so far watched loads of videos and had a short session on the range with mixed results. My question is; which instructors videos would you recommend that I watch? Martin Ayers and Paul Kopp seem to be doing completely different things to me. Paul doesn't seem to have that convoluted twirl affair that Martin has, (which I can't work out) and their takeaways seem totally different as well.

Am I totally misreading it or are they different and if so which should I go with?
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35699

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Andy,

I can't comment on Paul Kopp's method, maybe someone that has bought the video or going that route will give you some feedback...

I have been in Martin's online program for a couple of months and I will say there's nothing "convoluted" about the twirl at all and now is a good time for me to point out that Martin is a "whole" instructor. For the first time in my life I'm not wondering about or questioning where I'm headed....only requirement is an open mind!

Cheers,

Jim
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35704

  • anton
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Martin's twirl move looks super complicated when you watch his video and to be honest i didnt get it after watching that video and even after asking a question or two here on the forums and i kinda gave up on it. some people are dumb like that what you gonna do. later however it turned out that in reality its not complicated at all and pretty easy to do. awhile back i was working on something and was just hitting brick wall and started playing with my stance and eventually got to that stance Martin advocates in his video and decided to experiment with that twirl move again just for kicks as i like to figure those things out. from there it was easy to find that move. i say find because this is what i did. start with that exaggerated stance shown in the video and it should help you get it. super straight ball flight from that move. i couldnt shape the ball left or right much doing that tho, found it was very difficult to hit it crooked either way even on purpose, in fact i was getting little draws and fades at best and could only hit it crooked when i sorta broke out of the move on purpose so to speak. didnt see any more distance out of it but i was literally doing it for only like a quarter of my range session and only from that exaggerated stance so take my comments with that in mind. i think its more difficult to find it from your regular stance and it would probably take fair bit of practice to do it from your regular stance but start with that exaggerated stance shown in the video and it should get you there.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35708

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Andy,
Do you play tennis? Martin's "twirl" is the same move as a tennis serve motion. His drills for the twirl are exaggerated so you can get that feel in to your swing, but his swing is far more than just the twirl. He's all about containment, balance and free flowing momentum all applied in one motion.

He is a fantastic teacher and golf mind and will take your swing and game to a whole new level. You will be blown away by his concepts.

Shoot him an email for more info,

dre
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35718

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IMO, it's just another MORAD derivative, like SnT and other teachers that learned from MORAD directly or indirectly.

IMO, I don't think he discovered it by himself.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35722

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm sure both are great instructors, but my problem is that they are both selling the same 'product', the most powerful move in golf, but their methods seem to be different. Paul is all about early wrist hinge on the backswing and doesn't seem to be talking about a twirl. Martins takeaway is something completely different and his main focus seems to be all about the twirl.

Which is easier to follow?
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35773

  • Charles Lerche
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Hello,

Here is my two cents, having worked with both (some--right now I'm edging back to S&T a bit).

I would suggest you start with Paul Kopp, and definitely do the drills. This should give you results and a solid swing. After that, have a go building in Martin's move. Martin argues that you can build it into any swing. He even wrote me a forum post saying that you can use it in S & T, with maybe some limited adjustments.

I suspect that once you have a feeling for Kopp's sequence, you can modify your intent toward the target and twirl the club with little difficulty, the way Martin describes.

BTW, in the long video Martin and Steve show "the move" as a sort of small inward crescent on the back swing. However, in the three videos with the Harmons (that's right isn't it?) he talks about the feeling of pulling the club back out of the hosel. Try both...why not?

I think what you might find is that Kopp gives you the "basic form" of a good swing, and that Martin gives you a degree more "pop".
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Charles Lerche.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35823

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Well I'll say this much if I were to ever get a lesson from anyone and I wanted it to have permanent muscle memory and I was wanting a method that the body actually can perform. Out of the two Martin Ayers not even a close match. One is bio mechanically correct the other is bio mechanically not gonna happen even close to as consistant as the other. I could list 50 reasons why I list the most important 2 why Martins is miles ahead. First is balance the right arm is located farthest from target and ball therefore your never out of balance in fact it's too stable that's why people find it hard because they are used to their left arm throwing them out of balance therefore the body spends all day chasing balance and stability so they think lots of body motions good. It's their simple lack of knowledge on how we balance that's killing their improvement. The second is transfer of energy again Martins has 8 times more energy transfer which means you can actually swing slower than the other method and get better performance and results. So when you have an opinion on what's the better of two things you better know the difference cause saying planes and angles or ones easier to understand is not have anything to do with why something works. Stability and energy transfer are the paramount 2 things to why anything works when force is being applied. The angle of attack or wether you can grasp it has nothing to do with it. People love driving in reverse I guess cause that is what a left side swing is a object in reverse and yes it works but things are designed to do things in forward or in the front not the back. So for me it's Martin in a race thats not even close and a topic that should not even be one if you have any clue about this game or any right handed game we play. Name any right handed game we play or do left handed and I'll ask you to convince me that's they way to do it. There is nothing we do right handed with the left arm or shoulder active. NOTHING. At best the left is just a inhibitor of you ever doing any right handed thing well with no thought.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35826

Martin's principles provide an efficient way to put a certain amount of energy on the ball. His teachings have much more to offer than just "twirl". So...Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp?? If you want to concern yourself with body parts and connecting the dots, then i guess Paul Kopp. If you want to learn how to do one thing one time to hit one shot with a whole lot of energy on the ball, then Martin Ayers.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35850

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The Twirl is a move that could be made if the rest of the structure is right. If it's NOT right, then the Twirl alone will not work as intended. For an elite player like Elk it offered a new gear and consistency over what was there already.

That's why the Twirl is only 10% of what Martin teaches. The other 90% gives you the right structure and motion.

It's also worth pointing out that Martin is teaching in a way that the vast majority of golf instruction today is not. It is different but very accessible once you leave behind positional "join the dots" thinking.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35859

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Andy Gordon wrote:

Martin Ayers and Paul Kopp seem to be doing completely different things to me. Paul doesn't seem to have that convoluted twirl affair that Martin has, (which I can't work out) and their takeaways seem totally different as well.

Am I totally misreading it or are they different and if so which should I go with?

Great question, Andy. You're not misreading it. They look and talk different! ;) But from the ball and the physics point of view they are doing the same things. They must! So you can assume that whatever differences that you see or hear about Martin or Paul's methods are NOT necessary to a good golf swing! :laugh:

There are literally MILLIONS ways of taking a club back to the top of your swing. Martin's and Paul's ways are only two out of millions! :cheer:

However, if you look at impact pictures of great ball strikers of the past and present they ALL almost look the same! They must! In other words, they are ALL trying to do the same things like the way we ALL do the same things when we walk. They have to!
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35880

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Cy, what sort of a post is that? Billions of hours of thought and instruction dismissed with a few keystrokes :-)

Maybe one day you can enlighten everyone as to how they should build a good swing. In the meantime, let the instructors who are kindly offering their ideas put them out there.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35893

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Hi Andy

I've been on The DIrt for a just over a year now and I can say that this forum has done wonders to my understanding and knowledge of the golf game. I've experimented with all the different schools of thought and while some haven't stuck, the experience has still been invaluable.

Golf is a journey so in that sense I don't think it is a case of Martin or Paul, more a case of where you are in your golf journey. It is also interesting to note that we all learn/ absorb information in very different ways. Some of us are analytical, others instinctive/ feel based. Add our vastly physical and mental attributes then we realise that no-one can answer the question about which route to take, but ourselves.

Andy, every thought and opinion given on this forum by individuals are just that- personal thoughts and opinions. Only you can truly answer your question by digging in the dirt and experimenting with both (and all the other techniques on this site)

Personally, I find Martin more feel based and Paul more structure based. I've been playing golf for 10 years, but 8 of those years were self-taught (with all the bad habits that come with it!). I experimented with Martin's drills but found that my 'feels' were all wrong due to the years of bad habits ingrained in my swing. I realised in the past 18 months that for me to get to where I want to be in my golf journey, I HAD TO forget everything I thought I knew about the game and start all over again. This has been a very challenging thing to do for a feel based/ instinctive person as I am but I've found that Paul Kopp's drills are helping to give me the right foundations and 'feels' that I can start to build upon.

Hope this helps

Happy Digging!
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35896

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Dave wrote:
Cy, what sort of a post is that? Billions of hours of thought and instruction dismissed with a few keystrokes :-)

Maybe one day you can enlighten everyone as to how they should build a good swing. In the meantime, let the instructors who are kindly offering their ideas put them out there.

Dave, I didn't "dismissed" them. I said there are MANY MANY ways of taking a club back from Furyk to Trevino to Ayers to Kopp, etc. If I am wrong, please somebody correct me! :)

Since you asked for, the key to a powerful golf swing is a good pivot of your body/big muscles parts (shoulder, torso, hips, thighs), not just arms and hands swing "disconnected" from the main power source/engine.
I believe the easiest and the best way to build a good swing is learning how to pivot correctly and in balance. In other words, you learn the "invisible" swing's master key first (i.e. the footwork). The secret is in the dirt and your feet are closest to the dirt!
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35898

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Hi Andy,

So what is your most immediate need or area of your swing you would like to see improve? I ask because often the fastest or most immersive way to learn is to go after what interests you the most. That may not sound logical if it ignores some ideal or chronology of underlying fundamentals but that's the way it goes sometimes - we study what we're most curious about and then put the puzzle pieces together as we go along.
So your answer may come down to who looks like they are addressing more closely what you initially want to improve upon.

You also asked which is 'easiest' to follow. Don't know if you mean 'simpler' or 'quicker' to learn but one factor to consider either way is how much support you expect to get with any questions that may come up.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35925

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"Since you asked for, the key to a powerful golf swing is a good pivot of your body/big muscles parts (shoulder, torso, hips, thighs), not just arms and hands swing "disconnected" from the main power source/engine.
I believe the easiest and the best way to build a good swing is learning how to pivot correctly and in balance. In other words, you learn the "invisible" swing's master key first (i.e. the footwork). The secret is in the dirt and your feet are closest to the dirt! "
\

So now you're suggesting that these two instructors teach an arms-only swing. That is just a falsehood. In fact one of Martin's 3 principles is "counter-balance".

This is where this site and others can be counterproductive at times. People over-simplfying and making sweeping generalisations. I guess the smarter people will see through your post anyways.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35929

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Dave wrote:

So now you're suggesting that these two instructors teach an arms-only swing. That is just a falsehood. In fact one of Martin's 3 principles is "counter-balance".

This is where this site and others can be counterproductive at times. People over-simplfying and making sweeping generalisations. I guess the smarter people will see through your post anyways.

I am NOT "suggesting" what you said. You didn't understand what I said. Please don't try to misrepresent my words. People are way more smarter than what you think.

BTW, what is Martin's "counter-balance"? Are you Martin's student?
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35930

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deleted
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Rob. Reason: Entirely too snarky and serving no purpose.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #35948

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Hello,

I'm also an absolute beginner of Golf and had the same question.

I have started with Paul Kopp because his drills give me a good structure and foundation to start from. I am also learning a lot this way, the drills provide me a lot of insight in the swing. It is what Paul describes: I can't teach you the swing, but I can teach you how to learn the swing.

I still have to put in a lot of practice and I have to perform the drills a lot more. There are a lot of things I need to learn.

By the way: there is a "twirl" in the sequence and it is explained by Elk and Kopp. It is handled in the video (not the drills video).

What I also found very useful are the "trent dilfer" videos from the vault. There, Elk is focusing on the twirl from Paul Kopp.

I still haven't included the twirl in my swing as I'm only focusing on consistency.

After I have understood the sequence, I will look into Martin Ayers "move".

As a beginner, I had no idea what I was doing. Thanks to the drills, I am starting to understand the basics of the swing.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #36012

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Hello,

Just a little addition to my earlier post.

After reading the comment from Lee Commeaux and thinking about it, I will now take the following route:

. Doing the drills from Kopp, because they have helped me tremendously so far (went from total disaster to straight-hitter in a few weeks time)
. Really trying to understand and excercise what Martin is telling me, and working exclusively on that "feel" when I'm on the range or when I'm playing. Well, basically all the time when I'm golfing except when I'm doing the drills.

I came to this conclusion because if I'm honest to myself: when I'm playing it is impossible to conciously think about all the positions advocated by Paul Kopp. Well, for me it is impossible anyway. I'm also not trying to hit the ball, I'm really concerned with correctly moving the club around which makes me a very short hitter.

Feedback is very welcome!

Andy, which choice have you made and how are you doing?
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #36028

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Oh, man....Holy Dynamic Stabilization, Batman!

I believe that the combo job is the way to go. It has seriously paid huge dividends.

I was always a "load the back foot and spin" guy. Scoops galore.

The minute I watched The Sequence, I tried the move that puts your spine over the ball to set up the swing.
Elk, in his Dilfer videos, refers to it as "guarantees". You move your tailbone over the ball one inch with the initial backswing move, then get another inch with the lateral bump of the forward leg (tracking over the toes). For more info, seek the Dilfer video on Youtube (I believe it's #7 in the listing).

Now, this setup in the backswing immediately stabilizes your center over the ball. You no longer have that swaying head to worry about. It's pretty much FORCING you to swing down onto the ball.

This is where Martin made the difference.

I have always been one of those "blackout" swingers. I get to the top of the backswing, then everything happens so quickly that I can't get a good feel for what happens next. If I hit a good shot or a bad one, I never really had enough conscious awareness to repeat it every time.

With Martin's move, your right arm's position sets itself into its ideal position. There comes a point where you cannot torque it any further. It never changes. For me, that move locked in a set position for me at the top.

Kopp's sequence got me over the ball, and Ayers got me in one controlled slot in the backswing. There's a point EVERY TIME that you just know is your physiological limit.

Then, BAM. The left knee bumps out over the toe, the body begins to unwind, and that massive forearm delivers a strike to and through the ball.

That consistency of the backswing has allowed me to consciously be aware of the entire swing sequence.
It takes a bit of rewiring to get that Ayers move integrated into the backswing sequence, but once it happens, you will find it is AMAZING.

Because that backswing arm slot is the same every time, it is much more stable and repeatable. You're not searching for some arbitrary clubface spot. You're there, and now you're ready to deliver it.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #36052

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Lee Comeaux wrote:
Well I'll say this much if I were to ever get a lesson from anyone and I wanted it to have permanent muscle memory and I was wanting a method that the body actually can perform. Out of the two Martin Ayers not even a close match. One is bio mechanically correct the other is bio mechanically not gonna happen even close to as consistant as the other. I could list 50 reasons why I list the most important 2 why Martins is miles ahead. First is balance the right arm is located farthest from target and ball therefore your never out of balance in fact it's too stable that's why people find it hard because they are used to their left arm throwing them out of balance therefore the body spends all day chasing balance and stability so they think lots of body motions good. It's their simple lack of knowledge on how we balance that's killing their improvement. The second is transfer of energy again Martins has 8 times more energy transfer which means you can actually swing slower than the other method and get better performance and results. So when you have an opinion on what's the better of two things you better know the difference cause saying planes and angles or ones easier to understand is not have anything to do with why something works. Stability and energy transfer are the paramount 2 things to why anything works when force is being applied. The angle of attack or wether you can grasp it has nothing to do with it. People love driving in reverse I guess cause that is what a left side swing is a object in reverse and yes it works but things are designed to do things in forward or in the front not the back. So for me it's Martin in a race thats not even close and a topic that should not even be one if you have any clue about this game or any right handed game we play. Name any right handed game we play or do left handed and I'll ask you to convince me that's they way to do it. There is nothing we do right handed with the left arm or shoulder active. NOTHING. At best the left is just a inhibitor of you ever doing any right handed thing well with no thought.

This in bucket loads.

I've been a member of Martin's site for just a few weeks and my understanding of my swing and ball striking are miles ahead of where I would expect so quickly. I now have a SWING rather than series of positions.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #36055

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As someone who has studied Martin a lot, perhaps you could clear something up for those of us who have just watched the videos on the homepage. He shows you how to get to positions like the one at the top of the backswing (drills like the pizza pulling and so on) but when he actually hits a ball, he comes nowhere near those positions. If you pause the full swing video at the top of the backswing, his hands are low, flat and short, compared to the high position he seems to be advocating. Even the Abe Mitchell style takeaway seems to get lost. Any clues about this?
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #36057

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Simon wrote:
As someone who has studied Martin a lot, perhaps you could clear something up for those of us who have just watched the videos on the homepage. He shows you how to get to positions like the one at the top of the backswing (drills like the pizza pulling and so on) but when he actually hits a ball, he comes nowhere near those positions. If you pause the full swing video at the top of the backswing, his hands are low, flat and short, compared to the high position he seems to be advocating. Even the Abe Mitchell style takeaway seems to get lost. Any clues about this?

In the full swing you are moving a heavy object at pace and counterbalancing it. In slow motion you can see the effect of the internal pressures and containment more readily. I can assure you the feeling is the same during a full swing.
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Re: Martin Ayers or Paul Kopp 2 years 2 months ago #36058

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Hello,

I am experiencing something similar to what Jarett describes. When starting this game, i was very insecure about my balance, setup, swing, everything. What the sequence and the drills did to me was giving some confidence about the setup and backswing.

I have the feeling that the ayers move is great from there, but I have to practice more. I do have the feeling that kopp and ayers can easily be combined. It depends on your needs. I really needed the drills to get started with this sport.

For me, it feels that Kopp and Ayers have a different approach towards a similar end.

I suspect Lee Comeaux is already a good golfer. I can imagine that in a while, i will work much more on the ayers part then on the Kopp part.

In my experience as a table tennis player and coach, some students worked well with approach A, some with B and often, it changed over time. What is important, however is that you understand and work on the basics. It seems to be similar in golf.

The money spent on those movies has definitely been the best money on golf yet.
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