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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=158&Itemid=3"]The Real Moe Norman[/url] Group Forum: Greg Lavern and I are now members of the web site. If you want to ask Greg or me any questions about Moe or the book this is the place to ask. We wrote the book with Lawson Mitchell because there is in our opinion alot of misinformation out there about Moe the man and his swing. This is not because anyone is being dishonest but because no one who knew Moe way back when has really stepped forward and talked about him and his swing without carrying on the myth. We are all about The Real Moe Norman. So let’s compare information and we can all set the record straight.

TOPIC: Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent

Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7886

  • Doug Burke
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I have listened to Moe state that he had two things that money could not buy: knowledge and talent. I would like to better understand his feelings on what was the knowledge and talent that enabled him to become the best ball striker ever. What was the process and are there lessons to be learned to make this process more efficient? Of particular interest is his belief that people need an understanding of their own self and own game.
Thanks,
Rock
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7887

Moe had the knowledge that he would devote himself 100% to the game and lived and breathed it to such an extent that it became his soul expression in life. It was his wife, his mistress and his best friend. He also had the knowledge that his belief in himself and in his game would win out every time. His talent? The talent to practice and play every day all day year in and year out. If you think about it our current greatest golfer has changed his style four times (Woods). How does he make it work? He devotes himself 100 percent to the belief that it is the right answer and the right method and then he does not waiver. Half the battle in golf is to have the knowledge that your belief in yourself and in your "method" will rule the day. The second half is how much are you willing to practice in order to make it come true – talent is the process of preparing for success.

Patrick
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7908

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Chipper222 wrote:
Moe had the knowledge that he would devote himself 100% to the game and lived and breathed it to such an extent that it became his soul expression in life. It was his wife, his mistress and his best friend. He also had the knowledge that his belief in himself and in his game would win out every time. His talent? The talent to practice and play every day all day year in and year out. If you think about it our current greatest golfer has changed his style four times (Woods). How does he make it work? He devotes himself 100 percent to the belief that it is the right answer and the right method and then he does not waiver. Half the battle in golf is to have the knowledge that your belief in yourself and in your "method" will rule the day. The second half is how much are you willing to practice in order to make it come true – talent is the process of preparing for success.

Patrick
Patrick,
I am wondering exactly what the knowledge that he had was. His comments that the brain sends out messages to our nerves to our golf muscles to help produce the shot and that your heart and soul is part of every shot that you make. It is clear that his brain controlled everything. Did he have a checklist of thoughts that he ran through on each shot? What exactly was his brain doing? Do you believe that he just devoted himself so much to the game that he was unconsiously competent (i.e. knew exactly what to do without conscious thought)? Was his knowledge purely a feeling that he was going to succeed and not a conscious thought. Yes, I agree with you on talent. This is an unconventional way to think about talent. I think most people think of it as a god given ability that you either have or don't have. They don't think that talent is something you can earn. For example, I would love to be able to hit it 400 yards. However, I have not been willing to put in the effort to get my body into a condition to do that. It is just not that important to me. I believe it I would have devoted myself to that goal starting at 20, I would have achieved it by now. I also know that I have friends that hit it a mile with no dedication to doing it. They just seemingly always could do it. I have also learned that your weaknesses will be exposed in a 72 hole tournament so there is a lot of multi-faceted talent that you need to succeed. I think every time you practice, play a round of golf, or play in a tournament you are building up your talent to do better the next time. Your knowledge and talent can be continuously improved if you believe it can.
Thanks,
Rock
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7911

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Rock wrote:
I have listened to Moe state that he had two things that money could not buy: knowledge and talent. I would like to better understand his feelings on what was the knowledge and talent that enabled him to become the best ball striker ever. What was the process and are there lessons to be learned to make this process more efficient? Of particular interest is his belief that people need an understanding of their own self and own game.
Thanks,
Rock

ANSWER THIS.
Whats more important to be a great ballstriker or a great player?

start there if you do not know the answer to that then looking for the process is worthless.

FOR ME BALLSTRIKER . But i know the process that takes now as well as how does that relate to being a great player. the answer is NOTHING like you think. But you have to believe it to your core.
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7912

Rock:
Moe had all is conscious thought on the range. On the course it was all just target, target, and target. He practiced his motion but he played golf. He felt he was part of his shots because he felt the motion in his bones because HE PRACTISED SO LONG AND HARD THAT HE BECAME HIS SWING AND IT BECAME HIM - he knew it inside and out - no guesses or experimentation - no hit and hope. He accepted bad shots and he never lost faith in his motion and swing. Greg is the same. He can tell you what Moe did and what Moe felt and what Moe taught him - BUT HE CAN NEVER GIVE YOU THE HART AND BELIEF - you have to capture that yourself. Do you ever catch yourself not really believing that you are on the right path? Do you have moments of doubt? Moe never had that because he worked it and then used it in his playing practice rounds to test it.

Lee:
He was a great ball striker and took pleasure in hitting the ball solid not long, but he could play the game. He would hit 60 50 yard pitch shots at a demonstration - he loved to hit the ball to the target. So as a great ball striker he also played the game and played it well - all while being a very poor putter. Some people told me that he was the best chipper, bunker and pitcher of the ball that they ever saw. He controlled those shots. That makes you a player. Moe did everything he did to get the ball as close to his target as he could and then into the hole. He told Greg when Greg had his swing down “Now we work on tournament golf”. What he meant was now we work on score – he actually said score doesn’t matter unless you are playing for money or in a tourney. It was all just practice before that! In reference to what you say - he started with the ball striking.
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7914

  • Jerry Windham
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I think if you are to be a great player then you must be a great striker of the ball. Of course, you must have a great short game but to use it you have to get there. I believe Moe was a different character. Whether he was autistic as some believe, or whether he just had a very special gift and worked hard to perfect it is something we'll never really know since it's said he didn't like doctors. At any rate, he perfected what he did and even though he made a comment during one of his clinics that he had been wrong all his life, (talking about his time with Manuel de la Torre) in that video and all of the video I have seen of him from "Golf's Journeyman" on, his swing looked the same. I think maybe Moe thought he changed a thing or two here or there but I don't think he really did. It was just a thought or two but his body made the same moves each and every time. At least to my eye.

Jerry
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7917

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thinkin2 wrote:
I think if you are to be a great player then you must be a great striker of the ball. Of course, you must have a great short game but to use it you have to get there. I believe Moe was a different character. Whether he was autistic as some believe, or whether he just had a very special gift and worked hard to perfect it is something we'll never really know since it's said he didn't like doctors. At any rate, he perfected what he did and even though he made a comment during one of his clinics that he had been wrong all his life, (talking about his time with Manuel de la Torre) in that video and all of the video I have seen of him from "Golf's Journeyman" on, his swing looked the same. I think maybe Moe thought he changed a thing or two here or there but I don't think he really did. It was just a thought or two but his body made the same moves each and every time. At least to my eye.

Jerry

you are correct that his motion did not appear to change in that clinic video but his belief system did and that made him better. The point of that post the other day was its ok to say we are not correct about something and change it for OUR own betterment. Alot of people change because someone else says this or that looks better. Thats not the way to do it. In that video Moe showed everyone his new change through his results on reach shot. He never once pointed it out OTHER than saying a few things about staying Taller which is very noticable. There is a difference in staying tall and leaning left or dropping the right like he used to show. From a leverage standpoint its HUGE. But he understood change is the little things not the big visual motion. To me what I saw was when he hit the drives 10 feet high that was a motion that I personally have never seen him make from that view. Does not mean people who played with him had not ever seen it I just had never seen it. Personaly I think before he could not do it with ease he had to manipulate the trajectory and staying taller made the whole motion better and even more in control. Believe me MOE did not think he changed a thing or two he knew and he did and it is noticable if you know where to look. But they were changes for the better and here is how i see it even if he was WRONG he is still the best that ever played. So his WRONG is better than everyones elses RIGHTS. Thats pretty awesome. He was not Autistic he just lived in the now and I started doing that sometime back and it really works. He also did EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED TO EVERYDAY. Its just misunderstood alotas he was different. Imagine if everytime you went to hit balls or play people were asking you questions, you would keep the answers short too. He just wanted to do MOS....

Also in the video of the Moe interview he says he wanted to be a great ballstriker and maybe a good player. There is nothing wrong with that at all in fact thats brilliant. Every great or good player would kill to be a great ballstriker.

thanks for the response and the right answer is the one that you personaly believe in. So you are exactly right.

leecom
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7918

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Chipper222 wrote:
Rock:
Moe had all is conscious thought on the range. On the course it was all just target, target, and target. He practiced his motion but he played golf. He felt he was part of his shots because he felt the motion in his bones because HE PRACTISED SO LONG AND HARD THAT HE BECAME HIS SWING AND IT BECAME HIM - he knew it inside and out - no guesses or experimentation - no hit and hope. He accepted bad shots and he never lost faith in his motion and swing. Greg is the same. He can tell you what Moe did and what Moe felt and what Moe taught him - BUT HE CAN NEVER GIVE YOU THE HART AND BELIEF - you have to capture that yourself. Do you ever catch yourself not really believing that you are on the right path? Do you have moments of doubt? Moe never had that because he worked it and then used it in his playing practice rounds to test it.

Lee:
He was a great ball striker and took pleasure in hitting the ball solid not long, but he could play the game. He would hit 60 50 yard pitch shots at a demonstration - he loved to hit the ball to the target. So as a great ball striker he also played the game and played it well - all while being a very poor putter. Some people told me that he was the best chipper, bunker and pitcher of the ball that they ever saw. He controlled those shots. That makes you a player. Moe did everything he did to get the ball as close to his target as he could and then into the hole. He told Greg when Greg had his swing down “Now we work on tournament golf”. What he meant was now we work on score – he actually said score doesn’t matter unless you are playing for money or in a tourney. It was all just practice before that! In reference to what you say - he started with the ball striking.

For me what I believe he did best was this statement you just made:

took pleasure in hitting the ball solid not long

same pleasure for me everyday....

but you have to believe that with everything in you. I actually take pleasure in controling the ball short distances more now that I have discovered my own motion. Hitting it far is so easy anyone can do it. But SOLID and SHORT is a total rush.

Leecom
Last Edit: 3 years 3 months ago by Lee Comeaux.
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7921

  • anton
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the guy truly, sincerely loved what he was doing to the last bit it was all cherubic joy to him. that is the impression i have of him and thats to me is the single, most important thing to understand. if you understand that then the whole becoming a great ball striker thing is simply a byproduct of that. the biggest difference between a guy like that and everybody else is that had he failed to become a great ball striker what he was doing would still be a joy to him anyway. and it doesnt apply just to golf, same goes for anything else out there. there are very few people like that because such unconditional love for something requires a great deal of sacrifice in life. this might sound like alot of idealistic bs but thats the way it works.
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7922

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anton wrote:
the guy truly, sincerely loved what he was doing to the last bit it was all cherubic joy to him. that is the impression i have of him and thats to me is the single, most important thing to understand. if you understand that then the whole becoming a great ball striker thing is simply a byproduct of that. the biggest difference between a guy like that and everybody else is that had he failed to become a great ball striker what he was doing would still be a joy to him anyway. and it doesnt apply just to golf, same goes for anything else out there. there are very few people like that because such unconditional love for something requires a great deal of sacrifice in life. this might sound like alot of idealistic bs but thats the way it works.
Anton,
Yes, the unconditional love does require a lot of sacrifice. For most of us here on the site, we have our health, our faith, a job, a family, golf...or a wide variety of things that you value in your life or are important to you. In this case, you can have an unconditional love for each of these things or people, but it is a compartmentalized love. From my reading of Moe, it was golf and he felt his health was a byproduct of his happiness with golf. To be truly great at any one thing, I believe this is the sacrifice you have to make. Obviously, there are exceptions, like Nicklaus, who became the greatest golfer ever in his spare time...judging greatness by number of majors won. He was meticulous with time management and had an unconditional love for the game during his spare time. I think the unconditional love for Nicklaus was the love of winning or fear of losing. It wasn't ball striking or being a great player. Tiger Woods has the same love of winning. He can't hit the ball in the fairway 60% of the time so clearly being a great ball striker is not his priority. His unconditional love for golf is all about winning the tournaments and his endorsements. To me, there are few guys on the PGA tour today that are similar to Moe Norman that are trying to be great ball strikers first and being a great player is a byproduct of that. Vijay Singh is at the top of my list of a player who has the same basic work ethic and drive as Moe, but even with him I don't see the unconditonal love for the game, but he is very close to that ideal from my vantage point...never met him, but have watched him practice for hours. Granted, it is a different time now with all of the money and fame. I think that is why people go back to Ben Hogan and Moe Norman because you can really admire what they were able to accomplish and how they did it.
Thanks,
Rock
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7926

What Moe did and Hogan did was very special. Moe was NOT autistic - many people use it to diminish what he did because they did not understand it. If you really look at Hogan he was very different too. Remember Johnny Miller when he was a teenager went up to Hogan in the clubhouse and said “Mr. Hogan I don't want to bother you but I am Johnny Miller and I am a big fan and just wanted to meet you.”? Hogan looked at him and said. "Can't you see I'm eating my soup?" When you know something others don't and everyone wants a piece of you it can make you react in funny ways. I think Hogan liked to intimidate too.

So the bottom line is once you pick your path don't be knocked off it by the nay sayers. Do your thing and in the end you will have progressed and others won't and they will be angry with themselves and lash out. We spent three years writing this book and some people come off petty and jealous when all we wanted to do was get the truth out there, just as Lee wants to tell others about what he believes in - share the passion baby.
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7936

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I'm sure you guys have read this before, but just in case...


www.golfdigest.com/magazine/myshot_gd0411#ixzz19UBJAllq
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7944

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H. Bogan wrote:
I'm sure you guys have read this before, but just in case...


www.golfdigest.com/magazine/myshot_gd0411#ixzz19UBJAllq

Thanks for sharing that link Henny, it makes me angry to read how he was often treated yet I respect and love him even more for how he handled it all. Wonderful man! Jim
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7945

Great inteview for sure.
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7953

Going back to Rock's first post on in this discussion, I have found that with Moe it is often the best policy to look for the simplest interpretation. Once Lawson and Greg explained the swing ideas to me and demonstrated them I was hit with the simple elegance of Moe's timeless answer to the riddle of the golf swing. He built his swing to be simple, repeatable and reliable and in doing so created a beauty of motion- elegance. Moe's swing became simple but the reasoning behind it was not. Thanks to Rock for making me think of this. When Moe says he had two things you cannot buy knowledge and talent he was of course referring to the fact that you have to work for it. In a conversation (if someone can walk me through how to post video on here I will post it) with Mark Evershed (a gentleman whose campaign along with others to get Moe into the Canadian Sports and Golfing Hall of Fame finally broke down the establishment) Moe said that he "Had the only 365 day a year swing. I made it simple". Mark asks "How long did it take Moe?" Moe answers, "Five years, 500 balls a day." He was also quoted as saying "Golf didn't come easy to me. I worked at it."
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7968

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Henny,
No, I had never read that before. It kind of blew my hair back that he has a lot of the same beliefs as I do about the game. I bought the Real Moe Norman book and will study it to learn more.
Thanks,
Rock
H. Bogan wrote:
I'm sure you guys have read this before, but just in case...


www.golfdigest.com/magazine/myshot_gd0411#ixzz19UBJAllq
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #7969

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Patrick,
It is amazing that Moe's body could hold up to hitting that many balls day in and day out. That is what you call a work ethic. I am starting to understand now how you would get a real great feeling about what to do and not to do by hitting that many balls. I hit 135 balls today and I felt like I had a good practice session. Did he 500 balls one right after another or did he break it into sessions? How many balls per minute did he hit? I find after 1.5 hours of one after another hitting it becomes difficult to focus.
Thanks,
Rock
Chipper222 wrote:
Going back to Rock's first post on in this discussion, I have found that with Moe it is often the best policy to look for the simplest interpretation. Once Lawson and Greg explained the swing ideas to me and demonstrated them I was hit with the simple elegance of Moe's timeless answer to the riddle of the golf swing. He built his swing to be simple, repeatable and reliable and in doing so created a beauty of motion- elegance. Moe's swing became simple but the reasoning behind it was not. Thanks to Rock for making me think of this. When Moe says he had two things you cannot buy knowledge and talent he was of course referring to the fact that you have to work for it. In a conversation (if someone can walk me through how to post video on here I will post it) with Mark Evershed (a gentleman whose campaign along with others to get Moe into the Canadian Sports and Golfing Hall of Fame finally broke down the establishment) Moe said that he "Had the only 365 day a year swing. I made it simple". Mark asks "How long did it take Moe?" Moe answers, "Five years, 500 balls a day." He was also quoted as saying "Golf didn't come easy to me. I worked at it."
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Re: Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8036

Hello Rock and Happy New Year.

Looking at Moe's motion and something that Greg and Lawson pointed out, there was not snapping motion in the legs, back, spine etc. He kept low for a long time but he kept his knees bent a long time. HIs swing lasted a long time and according to the guys golf NEVER hurt him. Byron Nelson also swung for a long time and had no real golf injury to my knowledge and also kept his knees bent for a long time into the swing. Greg has never been injured because of his swing. Other than blisters!
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Re: Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8037

By the way Rock:

Greg told me that they would often hit 400 to 500 balls, play nine and then play again. Sometimes they would just hit 800 balls. What Greg pointed out was that as one hit the other would watch. At clinics Moe would just hit ball after ball. Many others during my research related that Moe would just hit balls one after the other with no break. He certainly did not think about taking scheduled breaks.
Last Edit: 3 years 3 months ago by Patrick Cunningham. Reason: Spelling!
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8047

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Rock wrote:
Patrick,
It is amazing that Moe's body could hold up to hitting that many balls day in and day out. That is what you call a work ethic. I am starting to understand now how you would get a real great feeling about what to do and not to do by hitting that many balls. I hit 135 balls today and I felt like I had a good practice session. Did he 500 balls one right after another or did he break it into sessions? How many balls per minute did he hit? I find after 1.5 hours of one after another hitting it becomes difficult to focus.
Thanks,
Rock
Chipper222 wrote:
Going back to Rock's first post on in this discussion, I have found that with Moe it is often the best policy to look for the simplest interpretation. Once Lawson and Greg explained the swing ideas to me and demonstrated them I was hit with the simple elegance of Moe's timeless answer to the riddle of the golf swing. He built his swing to be simple, repeatable and reliable and in doing so created a beauty of motion- elegance. Moe's swing became simple but the reasoning behind it was not. Thanks to Rock for making me think of this. When Moe says he had two things you cannot buy knowledge and talent he was of course referring to the fact that you have to work for it. In a conversation (if someone can walk me through how to post video on here I will post it) with Mark Evershed (a gentleman whose campaign along with others to get Moe into the Canadian Sports and Golfing Hall of Fame finally broke down the establishment) Moe said that he "Had the only 365 day a year swing. I made it simple". Mark asks "How long did it take Moe?" Moe answers, "Five years, 500 balls a day." He was also quoted as saying "Golf didn't come easy to me. I worked at it."

The key to not hurting is that he did not stop and get STATIC he was always Dynamic. I hit balls yesterday for almost 6 hours mainly for the workout and nada this morning. its very hard to hurt your palms when thats all that I use to imply the force on the ball at the time of Impact for me. Another thing for me would be that I imagine the sole of my club is in alot of pain after I hit because thats the one taking all the PHYSICAL abuse in my practice sessions. I am just merely standing out to the side and sending it to a "desired location with the least amount of effort possible" with no real concern about the outcome. Being CONERNED about the outcome will make you hurt the next day. Do you know why ROCK?
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Re:Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8051

  • Greg Lavern
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Lee
I like the word Dynamic you used to describe the swing motion. Moe kept all moving body parts moving and his acceleration would continue to a high finish. He achieved maximum speed at impact through the proper sequence of motion where his swing flowed like poetry in motion.
Moe believed in mass over velocity and used E3 swing weight which i also used all my life and still do. This slows the swing down and with the heavier club you know where the head of the club is at all times and feel it. He was creating maximum acceleration through mass rather then trying to achieve velocity with the light weight clubs played with today. When you are in control and you are swinging within yourself then the body is not abused and no sore muscles.
Greg
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Re: Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8073

Welcome,,,Anyone that can help keep Moe's memory alive is more than welcome. I met Moe several times and like everyone was amazed at his ball striling. While he was very interested in self awareness and improvement I have to say that one of the reasons I think he struck it so well was that he had his fundamentals down pat and did NOT think while swinging. He also played best when there were no delays on the course. He stayed out of his own way so to speak. He was very much in his own ZONE for a lot of the time he was striking balls.
A wonderfully special person. Not always the sweetest, but are any of us nice all the time.
Lorne Rubenstein knew Moe pretty well, as did Ian Doig of Strathroy. Are you guys out there?
all the best
Moeniac
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Re: Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8075

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Hi all:

I enjoy reading your posts, and I think it's great that are all showing our respect to Moe by writing about him and learning what he did - what's the saying - copying is the sincerest form of flattery?

I will be taking lessons from Manuel in the spring. Just reading what Bertholy said in his book, and what Manuel says in his, I think I can almost guess what he told Moe, but I will ask him and find it for sure.

Thanks to Greg Lavern and Lawson for writing their personal knowledge about Moe. Happy New Year all...
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Re: Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8079

  • Greg Lavern
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Moeniac,
I appreciate your gratitude towards carrying on Moe's memory. Moe provided Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern with all his knowledge as he told no one else anything of importance or how he executed his pure ball striking. The book the Real Moe Norman is now available at : www.therealmoenorman.com and will provide you with a understanding of the man and his golf swing. I think you will really enjoy .
I remember Lorne back in the seventies as a golf writer and Moe liked to talk to him since he took a interest in Moe as a person.
Thank you for your support for our good friend Moe Norman.
Greg Lavern
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Re: Moe's feelings about Knowledge and Talent 3 years 3 months ago #8081

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Eparcpa,
Eric,
I appreciate how much you liked the book. I am sure you will enjoy learning from Manuel and
will become a better ball striker. Maybe not the way Moe would strike it but you will improve your ball striking with Manuel, particularly if Moe took an interest in him he would be capable of giving you good direction.
Thanks
Greg Lavern
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