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In regards to Comparing Mr Hogan & Moe. Certainly they are both considered in almost everyon'e list of great ballstrikers. For me I am a golfer not just a ballstriker. Mr Hogan's performance in major tournaments is mind boggling. I mean he was almost 58 and he was a wedge shot on 17 away from winning the US Open. His ball striking under pressure will probally never be equaled.
Even Jack Nicklaus said Hogan was the best ball striker he had ever seen.

Moe was great but Hogan, he was another level higher IMOP

mantle7

Mr. Hogan's playing record is only surpassed by Woods and Nicklaus as a professional. Of this there is no doubt. To debate that is fruitless. I would point out that Lawson Mitchell one of the co-authors of the book worked in Hogan’s company for years and had many meetings with the man. They spoke about the golf swing. Lawson still refers to him as Mr. Hogan. He also thinks that Moe was a better pure ball striker than anyone else who has ever played the game and will tell you so. As for pure STRAIGHT ball striking there has been no one of Moe's equal in matching purity and character of shot IMHO. Lee Trevino was hitting balls for a golf writer in the 1980s when the writer commented on how solid and accurate his shots were. Trevino remarked, "If you want to see somebody hit the ball straight don't watch me. Go watch Moe Norman." I know because I was told by the writer in question. Mr. Trevino has remarked in interviews (of which I have copies) that he believed at that time (late 80s) Moe could still go out and win a US open if he had a good manager running interference for him. By this time Moe was in his fifties. Now of course we will never know. We do know that when Moe showed up at the driving range at the Canadian open in street shoes and started hitting balls Nick Faldo, Fred Couples, Nick Price and others all stopped to watch his prowess. This is no knock on Ben Hogan and his record or his technique. Lee Trevino saw Hogan play. He saw him at Shady Oaks. He saw Moe too. When it comes to hitting shots straight at your target time after time let's give the devil his due. It is not the same as a career or playing record.

Chipper,

This was not a knock on Moe. You bring up a great points and stories about Moe's prowess as a ball striker. But hitting balls on the range and doing it with or championship pressure is another story. The stories of MR Hogan hitting 14 fairways and 17-18 greens are countless. The 1953 British Open where he surgically took apart the course each round better than the first. If not for horrible putting he would have destroyed the field. I know Moe had a fantastic record on the Canadian tour. I never had the pleasure of watching either hit balls in person. I have only seen video's and they both are from another planet.

Again I fall back on Jack Nicklaus comment when a writer asked him if Tiger Woods was the best ball striker and he said something like Oh my word no that would be Ben Hogan.

IMOP if Moe was hitting balls on on side of the range and Ben was on the other side more people would be watching Ben. Of course that is pure conjecture on my part but it sure is fun debating

Cheers

Had to change this - I meant Mike not Mark and he calls it a Moegan.

No offense taken. Ya can't knock Moe and ya can't knock Hogan. They spark debate because they both did and showed us things noone else does. Moe often spoke of Hogan with others. Everyone did and still does. Perhaps Mike is the smartest one of all calling his swing motion a "Mogan". He is obviously onto something - look who is partners with him on this site.

Mogan - I like that!!! I wonder if we can trademark that (like Pat Riley did with "threepeat".

sevam1 went on record in one of his original vids saying that Moe used to carry in his pocket a little flip book with pictures of Ben Hogan in it and that he showed it to him. now Moe could have publicly ridiculed Mr Hogan saying about straight shot in golf being an accident but he did carry that flip book.

Greg saw that same flip book - Greg thinks it was home made but not sure. Greatness sees greatness.

Yeah,
Moegan I like it as well.
I love to talk about ballstriking versus Scoring. Some people play golf to try to learn how to hit the purest shot and hit hundreds of balls a day in pursuit of their secret to hit the ball perfectly. I am playing senior tournament golf so for me it's the score that counts. Johnny Miller & Tom Weiscoft were renown ballstriker and won 3 majors between them. On the other hand Gary Player is certainly never mentioned as a great ball striker but won 9 majors. It would be interesting to hear Johnny's view on this subject..

Oh well Go Seahawks

It would be a great question to ask. I hope I get a chance to one day. I must admit that I am drawn to the range vs. course many days. There are days that I go to the range at my local and hot balls and choose to do so rather than play. If I am pressed for time I will go to the range and warm up then play the course in my mind while hitting the shots. For me it is just as enjoyable some days. I often visit my buddy in the states and we have a short three or four day golfing holiday. We will play 36 a day and hit balls before and after each round. Some of the most fun is the range work, and my game always improves in the short and long term. I am a senior too and score is important in all the tournaments I play, especially when I play the young guys. Still all that range work helps, especially when I practice the tough trouble shots. I'm never worried about a tough shot I get on the course. I've hit it before.

mantle7 wrote:

Chipper,

I love hitting balls as well. I need to work on my flexibility so I don't get aches and pains. One thing both Moe & Ben would agree. There were not enough hours in the day to practice.

Chipper,
I read the first half of the book up to the Swing Secrets. It is very interesting and has great information. As you know, I still have a dream of playing on the Champions Tour. The window is closing as I am 47, don't have $200K burning a hole in my pocket for a 2 year preparation period, and have my younger daughter to get through college. My takeaway is if I do get an opportunity to give it a run is the work ethic I would need to have. It is a lot more than simply knowing what to do, how to do it, why it works, but you also have to work very hard. I now have a new definition for what working hard means. Also, the travel required was very eye opening and also the competitive atmosphere that you have to deal with. Moe dealt with a lot of difficult situations in his life and also worked very hard to get the results he did. I will keep these lessons in mind if/when I get the opportunity.

As far as the swing secrets, I am not really looking to swing like Moe so I'll just be reading it for anything that could help me. To me, the example of the journey he had as well as what Greg Lavern had is what is of most interest to me right now. It is really a shame how he was treated. We really missed out on seeing how great he was in the US.
Thanks,
Rock

Thanks Rock:

Your kind words are encouraging. Some only think of Moe's swing but as I had mentioned to you the real story is getting to know The Real Moe Norman, which is a lot about his attitude, work ethic and how he dealt with great adversity. As for the swing information, you like I, will find many things you can easily and productively apply to your game. Let me know.

Patrick

Rock wrote:

So Rock, I have a question for you. Now that you have read the first part of the book, what are your observations about Moe's feelings about knowledge and talent?

Rock wrote:


So Rock what are your insights into Moe's feelings about knowledge and talent now?

Chipper222 wrote:


Being the best at anything means striving for it every day and never settling for anything less. It is a life long journey and there is no destination that would allow you to rest on your accomplishments. There is always someone to listen too, learn from, and teach so keep growing or you are not living. You must work very hard to gain knowledge and talent and do it. You should be a mentor to someone like he was to Greg and Lawson. You should also be a mentee. I didn't pick up who was Moe's mentor during his life as it seemed to be Lawson at times or Paul Bertholy. The stories were very good and gave me a realistic sense of who he was. In summary, I am just more comfortable about my own journey after reading the book and realize better what it takes to gain and have knowledge and talent.
Thanks,
Rock

Rock wrote:


Thanks Rock. Just to clarify Lawson was a lifelong mentor and friend and Moe visited him in Florida every year from 1961 to the 2000s. With Moe it was not only seeing an old friend but an annual golf "check up" of sorts. As he traveled back from Florida each winter he would drop in a visit Mr. Bertholy for an afternoon to talk about Hogan and talk golf. Of course Mr. Bertholy watched Moe hit balls for hours. As you know from the book, Greg went on one of these visits with Moe and one by himself. It was Lawson that was the mentor, while Mr. Bertholy was more of a fellow traveler, so to speak. Thanks for your view bud!

Chipper222, I would like to comment on a portion of the book in which Moe observed other athletes and their motions.

It seems to me that talented athletes are always observing motion of other sports and learning from them, whether they are fellow golfers, such as Hogan or bowlers from the local alleys. They seem to be able to spot talent and have an eye for natural motion. To what extent Moe did this, I am not sure, but it makes alot of sense to take advantage of this ability if you have it.

Maybe yourself or Mr. Lavern could shed some light on this subject.

Thanks.

Mark , 1lovegolf

Mark Allred wrote:



I am sure Greg will tell you more Mark, but I can tell you that Moe loved to watch other athletes and on several occasions visited local bowling alleys with Greg as they just hung out. Lawson has related that Moe and he compared golf to baseball and hockey extensively, as Lawson was a professional hockey player in the Toronto organization and a professional baseball player in the Chicago organization. He didn’t make the big show in either as his pursuit of a golf career won out. Both Greg and Lawson have told me dozens of times that Moe was a great teacher. He didn't try to make people swing like him (he only did that with Greg) but he could pick out swing flaws in a second and pick the one out that would eliminate the most issues. In business we call that root cause analysis. You have to have an eye for motion and sequential movement to do that for sure and I would suggest that Moe had that in spades and that would allow him to really enjoy and appreciate great athletes. Hope I shed some light on the subject.

Patrick

Show me anywhere in Natural Golf or any other site that advertises itself as teaching the Moe Norman swing that has anything in its teachings that will get the golfer to this position. They don't. This is the swing that Moe used to win his tournaments and set his records. This is The Real Moe Norman. While we are at it let's ditch this "autistic, idiot-savant, rainman, Moe didn't really know what he was doing" crap.

Chipper222 wrote:


Patrick,
The attachment link doesn't work for me. Could you please check to make sure it is correct?
Thanks,
Jerry

thinkin2 wrote:


I sure will.

Lets see if this works.

OK it does. So as I was saying ... This is not a bent left arm or a 3/4 or a "single axis" backswing. This is The Real Moe Norman's backswing as worked on with Lawson Mitchell and taught to Greg Lavern. This is 1961. On tour. This has more in common with Ben Hogan than it does with anything I see peddled as Moe Norman's swing today.

Thanks, Patrick. It's amazing how long his backswing was compared to when I first learned of him through Natural Golf. It also looks as if his clubface is more shut at the top but this may just be an illusion? Anyway, it looks as if the club is past parallel and his stance doesn't seem quite as wide back then. HIs swing really looks more like other pro's than the way he looked later when I learned about him. Thanks for posting this.

Jerry

Chipper222 wrote:


Chipper222. gret photo and very insightfull coment on Moe and Hogans similar position at the top.

If you don't mind , I would like to add an observation in regards to kinetic linking. In both Hogans picture, which I will find later and the one you posted of Moe, there is a straight line from hands to left foot. This is IMO a powerfull position and a must. From the forearms down through the left shin bones creates a power line from the ground all the way to the top.

Hogans first move and most important of all his secrets is the left knee anitiating the down swing by the left knee.

The reason I bring this up is that the left knee initiates the hips which pull the hands down as Hogan wanted and illustrated in his book ,but Moe also talked about using his knees to bring the swing along.

I am not sure of all the details, or exactly how they executed this, but if the two greatest ball strikers took the time to mention it , I thought it would.

Maybe you could fill in the blanks and correct any of my assumptions. I believe the left knee, along with the left side is very important in the golf swing motion.

Thanks Chipper222

Mark, 1lovegolf.