Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=17&Itemid=3"]general Swing Discussion[/url] Group Forum: Discuss swing thoughts, therories, problems and hopefully some solutions.

TOPIC: Finding your Optimal Swing

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15151

Rock


I appreciate the time you took with the reply.
Very helpful.
I to have been, trying to develop Martin's method, when I get it in the groove the results are exciting.

thanks
Doc
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15153

  • Martin Ayers
  • Martin Ayers's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1934
  • Thank you received: 455
Rock
Just a quick note to say I think you are right about you being the one in the driving seat with your game...the same applies for anyone.

I don't think Dyn-Align and my pre-shot ideas are all that different...and I think the only difference to my knowledge is the spine tilt away from the target. Look forward to seeing more of Craigs' stuff in the future.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15154

  • Bill B
  • Bill B's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 770
  • Thank you received: 121
Jim Pruitt wrote:
This is off topic but GOOD GAWD BILL, 350 AT ANY AGE IS....IMPRESSIVE! :ohmy:

Jim,

If you lift with 18yr old testosterone filled Football players you would be amazed what you can lift. Not to mention the injuriesLOL
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15177

  • Doug Burke
  • Doug Burke's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 2092
  • Thank you received: 403
Craig,
I play in a league every Tuesday night. I read your post and Martin's post before going out and decided to use your DynAlign setup routine on every shot and Martin's swing. On Sunday, I was holding the setup alignment in my forearms and wrists during the entire swing and it was a breakthrough for me on my short irons...picked up 1 club in distance and hit it much more penetrating and solid too. I used Martin's swing and got very similar results. Played very well tonight so it worked two days in a row and I had a breakthrough in my ball striking. My putting and chipping are much more solid also as keeping wound muscles throughout the stroke is a very good change for me and more importantly the exact sequence that you discovered to achieve the setup produces excellent results for me. The strike I was getting on the short shots and the sound was noticeably more pure and my distance control was improved. I really appreciate your comments about the different swings that are possible and how your DynAlign setup enables more control at impact which I can definitely vouch for as it has been one heck of a light bulb moment understanding the correlation.

Martin,
Russ got me going on the idea that my hips were not getting enough tilt in the backswing. Billy Bondurak was also saying a similar thing in a different way. The right side bend/left hip bump at address seemed to make that happen more automatically. I understand what you are saying that this produces more spine tilt at address, but I also believe it changes how your lower body can move during the swing. The breakthrough on the short irons was getting more tilt of the hips through impact and the way I am able to move my hips through impact. I am getting my hips to clear on a diagonal line now LEFT of the target line...I am not sliding laterally left or spinning my hips out or synchronizing my thorax with my lower body. It is a very direct movement of the hips diagonally LEFT through impact. We have discussed in the past moving the belly on a diagonal toward the target line in transition as Maves does or moving the Thorax and lower body together to an impact fix prior to the release move with the hands. This is a little different movement of the hips...please try this and tell me if it doesn't feel like the purest short irons you ever hit or maybe it is just for my body type that it works so well...don't know at this point. It feels like the clubhead is controlled by this hip movement and it automates a very pure, clean, downward strike. I am having difficulty visualizing why moving my hips through impact in this way would result in a more downward strike on my short irons, but I am telling you it made a huge difference and there is something that needs to be discovered to explain why this works so well. On the longer clubs below my 6 iron, I didn't pick up any distance, but I do have a more penetrating ball flight. I'll keep working on this and see if I can hone in on exactly what is happening, why it works, and explain it better.

Doc,
Yes, I know what you mean about the excitement with Martin's method. I have felt that a number of times over the past few months. There is just a lot to discover for yourself so keep going for it. On your great shots, dwell on it and savor it for awhile before hitting another ball. A lot of nights when I hit the shot I am looking for, I watch it, think about it, and then pack up my stuff and go home. There is no use to try and hit one better as I usually will get off track chasing something better when I already found it. Keep a journal and write down what you were thinking and feeling on that great shot. When you come back to the range again, pick up where you left off and see if you can get what you are looking for again. When you are hitting them all pure, then you need to go on the course and see if you can do it there. Take it out into tournaments and see if you can do it there. There is a definite process to follow, but you must be disciplined in your approach. Plan out what you are looking for, how you are going to do it, and then stay on track with your plan. You will get there if you have patience and will power to succeed...it will not be easy...there are no shortcuts...have fun, enjoy the process and keep focused on your goals.
Thanks,
Rock
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15178

  • Russ Alexander
  • Russ Alexander's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 150
  • Thank you received: 33
Rock i would like to see the video but Ill bet whats happened is by rotating your hips with the right movement you probably have now let your club head shallow out and thus created a truer (sp ) path thru impact the club is staying on the compression line much longer.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15180

  • Craig Foster
  • Craig Foster's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 86
  • Thank you received: 14
Rock,

Nice going....breakthrough and light bulb are good words. You are one quick study. Good to hear things worked for full shots + short game. Your description of sequencing is right on.

Agree with your comment about dwelling and savoring the great shots. Sounds like you are getting getting your fair share.

Keep it up.
Craig
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15187

  • Doug Burke
  • Doug Burke's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 2092
  • Thank you received: 403
Craig,
Yes, the setup sequence is key to achieving the correct setup. The words you used were important to get me to do it. One of my buddies is telling me that this right side bend left hip bump is also called Reverse-K setup. I have heard it discussed and seen a picture of it, but did not know how to get into it. Your step-by-step instructions got me to do it and know how to repeat it over and over again...right foot in front of the left, CCW rotation of the forearms, Palmar flexion, right side bend/left hip bump, fine alignment with the shoulders. The other part of it is I didn't really know that this setup would result in such a significant change in my swing. Using the lower body during the swing to sequence everything else is not a new concept. Apparently, getting it to move in the correct way is very important to how you hit the ball. I have been told about the belly starting the downswing or the butt...now I realize that if you engage the correct parts of your body in the correct sequence during the setup that these movements will become automated during the swing. There is a lot subtleties here and the words that are used are important as well as the sequence that you use those words. You have figured out how to instruct me to do it correctly. I will not forget what a great thing you have done for me.

Russ,
My divots are fairly shallow now so you are probably correct about staying on the compression line longer. I'm going to keep working on this to understand what exactly is happening with my divots, my transition, my release move, and the results that are different. Again, I really appreciate your feedback about hip tilt which led me down the path to finally understanding what to do with my lower body.
Thanks,
Rock
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bill B

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15214

  • Craig Foster
  • Craig Foster's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 86
  • Thank you received: 14
Thank you Doug, you are most welcome. Your personal set up sequence should become second nature soon as you feel the connectedness and control within the alignment system of golfer, club, and club path.

The side bend and hip bump create the secondary spine angle at address instead of your having to create that spine configuration during your swing motion. Goes along with minimizing slack in the system.

To borrow from Vision 54, there is a DynAlign Box and a Swing Motion box. (btw shouldn't they be Vision 50 because if you are hitting it that good why not eagle the par 5's?)

Happy to hear of your rapid progress. You are one intrepid test pilot.
Craig
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15228

  • Gary
  • Gary's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 28
Hi Rock,

Looking at stills of your impact position:

dirt1.JPG


I would say that you are 'Y' at impact looking at the lead arm and shaft when you would like to be 'y'. I have never seen a tour pro at impact hitting a normal shot who was not 'y'...

Hey just my two cents!

gary
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15232

A lot of that is equipment! Look at the shaft bend. If he had equipment that was stiff enough, he wouldn't have to throw his hands at it. You get some stiffer shafts and I think that image would look different!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15237

  • Martin Ayers
  • Martin Ayers's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1934
  • Thank you received: 455
Gary wrote:
Hi Rock,

Looking at stills of your impact position:

dirt1.JPG


I would say that you are 'Y' at impact looking at the lead arm and shaft when you would like to be 'y'. I have never seen a tour pro at impact hitting a normal shot who was not 'y'...

Hey just my two cents!

gary
You can't really compare those pictures...Rock's video was clearly shot with a phone or other such camera that the lens is distorting the image.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15239

  • Gary
  • Gary's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 28
Martin Ayers wrote:
Gary wrote:
Hi Rock,

Looking at stills of your impact position:

dirt1.JPG


I would say that you are 'Y' at impact looking at the lead arm and shaft when you would like to be 'y'. I have never seen a tour pro at impact hitting a normal shot who was not 'y'...

Hey just my two cents!

gary
You can't really compare those pictures...Rock's video was clearly shot with a phone or other such camera that the lens is distorting the image.


I don't think so... Look at the position of the trial hand for instance it is straight and the hands are in the middle of the body. Looks like a classic case of the hit impulse. LOL something with which I have a lot of experience...

Imho the y vs. Y at impact is the one most common difference between pros and ams.

gary
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15251

  • Martin Ayers
  • Martin Ayers's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1934
  • Thank you received: 455
Not denying that Gary...just pointing out that the camera used is clearly making it impossible to determine where things are in relation to each other. I try to avoid guess work, and you can only guess, make assumptions, when looking at that picture.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15256

So is it the camera that makes the shaft look so bent or is that what the shaft is really doing?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15264

  • Martin Ayers
  • Martin Ayers's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1934
  • Thank you received: 455
It's probably a bit of both...but the issue with analyzing that frame is that his hands are likely further forward by impact than that photo shows. The ball is still there for starters...so it's not impact....the only thing that makes it look close to impact is how close the club head is to the ball and that is the part that I think is distorted in these photos.

It may well be that Rock could use a little more y look at impact....I wouldn't make that call from this picture. My motive is not to just argue with Gary here :) It's to help Rock....which I'm sure is Gary's only motive also.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15272

  • phily
  • phily's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 198
  • Thank you received: 46
Re: y or Y

Just my 2 cents, but I even suspected this from watching Rock's original #15085 video post that was shot from behind the ball (!).
If his hands aren't getting past the ball at impact as much as they should or could, in my mind, it would be the one issue to focus on before anything else.
Does rock have any other video or photos here that could show if this is really the case ?
(I'd be happy to be wrong, but happier for Rock to be right because of the huge payoff waiting for him if this is the case).
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15274

  • Gary
  • Gary's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 28
Martin Ayers wrote:
Not denying that Gary...just pointing out that the camera used is clearly making it impossible to determine where things are in relation to each other. I try to avoid guess work, and you can only guess, make assumptions, when looking at that picture.

Nope not guessing... Here is another look with the ball gone this time:

drt2.JPG


Lol, I have seen a lot of video of a flip release similar to this one :-) so I am pretty well aware of what it looks like. His hands should be up by his left hip in the second frame. Easy to see not so easy to correct, though I would not be surprised if Rock makes a practice swing with no ball and videos it he will be in a lot 'better' position at this point.

gary
Last Edit: 3 years 1 month ago by Gary.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15275

  • Timothy Goynes
  • Timothy Goynes's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 695
  • Thank you received: 233
Gary, are you at all familiar with Lee Comeaux's CMotion and the idea of "standing the shaft up" at impact? This is something I've worked on for a long time and I know Rock started using it even earlier. CMotion is a very right-sided "push" approach rather than trying to lead with the left. The basic idea is to straighten the right arm through the ball and push it with the right hand/palm while staying flat-footed on top of the ball. It's an entirely different approach to hitting a golf ball but it works phenomenally well. There is no "pull" or leading with the left side, so the release can be seen as a "flip" if that's all you're looking for. But in this motion, you're still hitting down on the ball, but using the true loft of the club. Leading hard with the left side (and keeping the hands ahead) often results in an open face at impact and a glancing blow, leading to the high-right miss. But pushing with the right and straightening the right arm through the hit allows the face to square up, so you are hitting down on the ball with a square clubface and therefore, shots come out lower and start down the target line.

Here are two videos from Lee himself. The first is him just explaining his action (he talks a mile a minute so hold on tight...), the second is him on the range...listen to the sound at impact and the penetrating ball flight!



The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15279

  • phily
  • phily's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 198
  • Thank you received: 46
All I see is a powerfully built man 'Interpreting' how he himself feels delivery of lag.
He's simply figured out how to make an early release stay flat longer through the impact zone. Unless he's pitching, his considerable turning body mass is playing an important role, whether he realizes it or not, in keeping this timed release & club head moving through impact. His consistency may be unique to his physique or he may be doing the best job I've ever heard of describing the punch shot technique. I just don't know if Rock is being served well by this until he has experienced this exact same effective release through the ball only with hands and shaft leading the club head. Watch how Rock swings, even though these two are Big Dogs, I think Rock's style or potential power is better suited to hands ahead.
Last Edit: 3 years 1 month ago by phily.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15281

  • Martin Ayers
  • Martin Ayers's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1934
  • Thank you received: 455
Gary wrote:
Martin Ayers wrote:
Not denying that Gary...just pointing out that the camera used is clearly making it impossible to determine where things are in relation to each other. I try to avoid guess work, and you can only guess, make assumptions, when looking at that picture.

Nope not guessing... Here is another look with the ball gone this time:

drt2.JPG


Lol, I have seen a lot of video of a flip release similar to this one :-) so I am pretty well aware of what it looks like. His hands should be up by his left hip in the second frame. Easy to see not so easy to correct, though I would not be surprised if Rock makes a practice swing with no ball and videos it he will be in a lot 'better' position at this point.

gary
Different picture Gary...right? :)

Easier to correct if you know the cause. The hips are too far forward...if he got his hands up there he wouldn't be able to put the sweetspot on the ball. As a long time good Golfer Rock will do what he needs to to put it on there. So to clean up the delivery I would suggest he clears more and sooner and doesn't go so far laterally. This will allow the left arm to stay higher for longer. A higher left arm equates to it being further forward at impact.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15283

  • Doug Burke
  • Doug Burke's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 2092
  • Thank you received: 403

Went out on the course to work on Craig's DynAlign and Martin's Most Powerful Move...felt good out there...it was so hot...

Gary,
I appreciate the feedback...you are correct and I have the big Y going...don't agree with your assessment of a hit impulse or flip release being the reason for it however...I am fairly steady tee to green so my move produces nice results. You may be correct that I need the smaller y, but these swings felt good so I am not sure. I am tall, thin, and not very strong so for me to generate power I have to do a 1-2-3 sequenced punch in the release move of left hip diagonal left (~45 degrees from target line), left shoulder up, and right hand punch to deliver everything I have through the ball. I am working on getting physically stronger so I can do more what Martin Ayers would like me to do...keep the twirl going or keep the forearms wound deeper into the downswing but this will be a long term proposition to get my forearms stronger so I can handle the forces that I am generating. These shots were probably carrying about 260 yards and rolled out to 330 yards. I'll keep working on it and improve it...I guarantee you that.

Tim,
Very surprised to hear your comments. Glad to hear you are working on Lee's stuff. You will definitely learn from trying something different. Would like to see how your swing is looking so please give us a contrast between your swing doing your normal conventional swing and Lee's stuff.

Phily,
You have some good insights there. Lee has totally different strengths than mine. He has 14.5" diameter forearms compared to 11.5" for me. He is 1.5x wider than me and I am taller. His fingers are so strong that he could probably out arm wrestle me with his pinkie. He squeezed my bicep one time with his right hand fingers and I thought he was going to crush me. I can outrun him and ...kidding around. I have not yet met Martin before, but watching his videos and what his buddies say, he must also be extremely strong also. These guys have taught me what it takes to produce massive power and to really know what I need to do to improve. Although I know what I need to do, it is a long term proposition to get there.

Jason,
I am using a Kodak Zi8 camera. It has been proven that this camera distorts the shaft flex so this frame that is posted showing the unreal forward flex is not real. I am using an Oban Devotion 6 Stiff Flex. Glad to hear your Nunchuck is working well for you. I like the idea of going to a shorter shaft...waiting until someone finds something better and sells theirs on BuyNSell for $50...$200 saved is $200 earned and I am patiently waiting...kidding around.

Craig,
I appreciate the feedback. I am feeling more comfortable with DynAlign setup every time out. You nailed it.

Martin,
Do you see any progress here? Do I need to hit the weight room...what is the next step?

Thanks,
Rock
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15284

  • Martin Ayers
  • Martin Ayers's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1934
  • Thank you received: 455
I see progress Rock, definitely. The key to fixing your impact alignment lies with you staying more behind the ball and aiming in front of it. This is the reason I advocate less axis tilt at address so that the arms and legs are both wound forward and they are working in unison at a common goal...alignment.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Doug Burke

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15285

  • Gary
  • Gary's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 28
Different picture Gary...right? :)

Easier to correct if you know the cause. The hips are too far forward...if he got his hands up there he wouldn't be able to put the sweetspot on the ball. As a long time good Golfer Rock will do what he needs to to put it on there. So to clean up the delivery I would suggest he clears more and sooner and doesn't go so far laterally. This will allow the left arm to stay higher for longer. A higher left arm equates to it being further forward at impact.

Hi Martin,

Yes it is a different picture and different swing from the same series of swings. Due to the frame rate every swing shows different positions of the arms club etc..

I don't see the hips being too far forward as noted by the red line:

dirt3.JPG


I see that the spine angle is pretty good and the hands as shown by the vertical yellow line are way to far back. This is typical of am swings and is not typical of pro swings. I have seen folks adjust body positions etc. to try to correct but have never seen that approach work. Lol some pros say that the hit right from the top and other such things but they still achieve pro impact position while ams who try the same just get worse (personal experience included)... All very interesting!

gary
Last Edit: 3 years 1 month ago by Gary.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15286

  • Gary
  • Gary's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 28
Hi Rock,

My comment is that your impact position does not match pro impact position and it surely does not. What you want to do about is up to you! You can play good golf with the swing that you have as a matter of fact I have seen video of an amateur player at US Open qualifying who did not have pro quality impact position. Of course he did not play in the US Open either... I have never seen a tournament pro with impact position as far back as yours is.

gary
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15289

  • phily
  • phily's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 198
  • Thank you received: 46
(middle photos) I will let the experts decide but I think that if Rock got more comfortable keeping his left arm straight on the downswing that this would help hand position at impact.
(bottom photos) The photos of the position at the top are a bit unfair because the very next frames after that, in the video, show an excellent 'top' position of the starting of the downswing. It's very hard for anyone who is this flexible not to go that far (I do it) but it is not necessary.
(top) The photos showing post impact are as close as the video would allow but they are tell tale.
(all photos shown are absolutely different from one another and from different swings)



Last Edit: 3 years 1 month ago by phily.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Time to create page: 0.447 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum