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TOPIC: Finding your Optimal Swing

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15290

  • Russ Alexander
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Rock your lower body looks great in the middle row of pic..... I wish I could get my hips and legs in that spot...... in the third pic it looks like you have released the whole package you stored up a little early...if that's your normal release that is why your impact photos show your hands behind the ball...if you contain it a little longer I think you will find some magic.....I struggle with that exact thing when i am off and my pics look exactly like that . Martin will surely know if you still have it contained.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15291

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My stills
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15292

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C:\fakepath\IMG_2227.MOV
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15293

  • Martin Ayers
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Gary wrote:
Different picture Gary...right? :)

Easier to correct if you know the cause. The hips are too far forward...if he got his hands up there he wouldn't be able to put the sweetspot on the ball. As a long time good Golfer Rock will do what he needs to to put it on there. So to clean up the delivery I would suggest he clears more and sooner and doesn't go so far laterally. This will allow the left arm to stay higher for longer. A higher left arm equates to it being further forward at impact.

Hi Martin,

Yes it is a different picture and different swing from the same series of swings. Due to the frame rate every swing shows different positions of the arms club etc..

I don't see the hips being too far forward as noted by the red line:

dirt3.JPG


I see that the spine angle is pretty good and the hands as shown by the vertical yellow line are way to far back. This is typical of am swings and is not typical of pro swings. I have seen folks adjust body positions etc. to try to correct but have never seen that approach work. Lol some pros say that the hit right from the top and other such things but they still achieve pro impact position while ams who try the same just get worse (personal experience included)... All very interesting!

gary

Gary
I have seen the approach work. Again, my goal here is to help Rock, and others that may be looking at this thread. The first thing that jumps out at me from that comparison is exactly what I said earlier. Rock needs to clear more...as evidenced by the position of the right leg/hip (most clearly different point to look at compared to Els). It's easy to draw lines and draw conclusions, you can draw whatever you like on that 2D image but if you look at all the components there is an enormous differential between where Els is and Rock is in the same picture.....to my eye almost as big a difference in where the hands are. If his left hip was cleared more and sooner his left leg would still be in the same spot, but his right hip/leg would be further forward and his left hip like Els would be further behind the line drawn at the extremity of his left leg.

Importantly this would make Rock's left armpit be far enough away from the ball to allow for a long left arm at impact. He simply doesn't have the room at the moment to let the left arm out...lead the clubhead...and still put the sweetspot on the ball.

The one option he has from that body position is to thrust the right arm in a straight line at a point on the plane line. So he could fix it that way, there's options.

Since the ball isn't moving and we have every option to stand and position ourselves any way we choose, I think it's a VERY valid way to look at improving your swing, that of positioning the body...or if you like bringing yourself into position to hit. It's something that we can change without having to do it at 100+mph.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15294

  • Bob Perry
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Rock, just wanted to say I appreciate you putting your swing out there for review as the discussions triggered in this thread have greatly helped me in my understanding of impact - especially the last few pages.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15295

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Martin, Unfortunately the change has to be made at speed.

There are pros who have their hips less open at impact then Rocks are.

Telling Rock to open his hips more at impact might help him or it might destroy his swing... I doubt that it will cure his hit impulse.

I would be very interested in seeing some video evidence of the students who have achieved a pro impact position based on opening the hips more at impact!

gary
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15296

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Bob Perry wrote:
Rock, just wanted to say I appreciate you putting your swing out there for review ...
Thanks Bob, that needed to be said... Thanks Rock.


To all -
There seems to be some agreement then that Rock could benefit (allot I think) from more rotation before release. And from what we can see he is at that 'place' where he is definitely ready for this next step.
Some feel clearing of hips, some think more core or shoulder etc.
But how do you best explain it to someone how to feel this or what drill is best to get them hooked on the results so that they stay with it and even exaggerates this move more than they think they should. Anyone here that remembers going though this change also remembers how tough it is because as far as you were concerned you already felt like your hands were way past the ball at impact even though they weren't. I know there are sling contraptions and wrist braces that force you to rotate your body more, if you expect to hit the ball straight with them on, but I'd like to know what helped those that have gone through this in the way of swing thoughts or drills. (btw - my mantra is to always swing slower while trying changes - slow as in: whatever your carry distance is with a club, these 'grooving' practice swings, should be about half that distance).
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15297

  • Bob Perry
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Phily, this post by Martin says it best. Instead of twisting, pulling or rotating more (which is not easy to do in unison with rest of body) just align yourself for proper impact at address and swing into it.
Martin Ayers wrote:
I see progress Rock, definitely. The key to fixing your impact alignment lies with you staying more behind the ball and aiming in front of it. This is the reason I advocate less axis tilt at address so that the arms and legs are both wound forward and they are working in unison at a common goal...alignment.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15298

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phily wrote:
Bob Perry wrote:
Rock, just wanted to say I appreciate you putting your swing out there for review ...
Thanks Bob, that needed to be said... Thanks Rock.


To all -
There seems to be some agreement then that Rock could benefit (allot I think) from more rotation before release. And from what we can see he is at that 'place' where he is definitely ready for this next step.
Some feel clearing of hips, some think more core or shoulder etc.
But how do you best explain it to someone how to feel this or what drill is best to get them hooked on the results so that they stay with it and even exaggerates this move more than they think they should. Anyone here that remembers going though this change also remembers how tough it is because as far as you were concerned you already felt like your hands were way past the ball at impact even though they weren't. I know there are sling contraptions and wrist braces that force you to rotate your body more, if you expect to hit the ball straight with them on, but I'd like to know what helped those that have gone through this in the way of swing thoughts or drills. (btw - my mantra is to always swing slower while trying changes - slow as in: whatever your carry distance is with a club, these 'grooving' practice swings, should be about half that distance).

Here are my thoughts on possible ways to achieve pro quality impact position:

1) See a pro who uses video at the very least and more up to date feedback systems at the best. It is very important that he or she knows what they are doing. Possibly someone with this setup: www.balbigolf.com/aboutus I don't know Dave Balbi and I don't know how good he is but the approach seems sound. I have heard good things about the Model Swing folks and I had some good results myself using their computer program. Also Jim McLean seems to have a lot of interesting ideas in this area. There are thousands of others I am sure...

2) Get a copy of 'Golf Swing Instruction 101 the Paul Bertholy method'. Do the drills properly and you will develop proper lag and good impact position. Here is a link to the website where you can purchase the manual: www.paulbertholy.com/paulbertholy/Order_the_Book.html Paul Bertholy was a brilliant teacher and innovator, if you have done any sort of drills in the past there is a pretty good chance that he invented the original drill. He was way ahead of his time. Moe Norman visited Paul Bertholy once a year and called him 'coach'.

3) Take your own video and figure it out for yourself. This is the tough way but it can be done if you sweat enough and don't give up..

Those are few ideas that I have. You can video yourself making a practice swing with no ball. If you are like me you will achieve perfect impact position without even trying. :-) The absolute best way to learn it seems to be as child by copying a good swing of a very good player. Kind of tough for most of us...

gary
.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15299

  • Martin Ayers
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Gary
If everyone could be like you then I wouldn't have a job right. :) Look at your right leg location in your avatar...it would not be in that location if you hadn't cleared your torso.

All the measurement and analysis technology in the world is not going to be of any benefit unless the player understands what they need to do. It's very easy as I said to draw lines and draw conclusions. As I pointed out, your pictures with lines on it highlighted many differences between Ernie and Rock....some of the differences were every bit as glaring as the difference in the hand location. The one relationship I saw there was that Rock has his right forearm and right hip in a very similar relationship to Els.

If you want evidence we should first examine the 'evidence' you put forward and evaluate that.

Try a simple exercise....
With or without a club take a backswing and then transition so that your left arm is now parallel to the ground...right elbow will be about rib height.

From there try both moving only laterally...or only turning. It should be fairly obvious which one will have the effect of getting the left arm more forward by the time you get to impact....and that is not even taking into account the inertia of the club moving at speed.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15303

  • phily
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Bob Perry wrote:
Instead of twisting, pulling or rotating more (which is not easy to do in unison with rest of body) just align yourself for proper impact at address and swing into it.
... Martin says it best... I see progress Rock, definitely. The key to fixing your impact alignment lies with you staying more behind the ball and aiming in front of it. This is the reason I advocate less axis tilt at address so that the arms and legs are both wound forward and they are working in unison at a common goal...alignment.

I hear ya and I also think 'align for impact (as in the little 'y')' is a good swing thought. But, and Rock would answer this best, I'm wondering if telling someone who's releasing behind the ball to "stay more behind the ball" ... if they would interpret that the same as you or I or someone who already hits the ball 'y'.

Personally I'm fine with his swing I just want to see it delayed. As in 'leaving the club behind him', as he's dropping the right elbow, until he has waited for & performed way more weight transfer and rotation over the ball with the body / upper body. (easy to say).
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15304

  • Doug Burke
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Martin,
I worked on what you said. I hit many incredible shots today. When I went for all out power, I was missing right but smashing it really good. Still didn't get the impact position you want me in. Need an idea to keep me from raising in the backswing...there is extra movement there that I believe is causing me issues later on...I rise up and then lower into where I should just get too and stay...this is what I need to get rid of for good. Please let me know if my comments in the video indicate that I am understanding your feedback properly...can see that I am not doing what I think or feel that I am. Believe I am closing the gap now. Really appreciate what you wanted me to do as it makes perfect sense to me now...you really do know what you are talking about...I know I told you before that you nailed it, but it is still taking me time to actually do what I know I can do.
Thanks,
Rock
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15308

  • Martin Ayers
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Rock your demonstration at the end was good, I like what your thinking, I would minimize the right side bend at address as that is pushing your hips forward, just stand equally tall on both sides and have the same intent as these swings and I believe it will get better. You definitely are clearing better (as evidenced by your right arm being less straight at impact) but are still too far forward. Good work so far.

On the right side bend that Craig advocates in the short game and putting, these swings are absent the dynamic of the arms swinging above and to the right of your COG and so there is less force acting on them to MOVE left. SO taking out that piece in your full shots will not preclude you from using the forearm and body winding toward the target.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15313

  • Craig Foster
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Gentlemen,

I would just like to mention once again that I appreciate what Rock is doing, but the pre-shot here does not represent the DynAlign sequence.

This is a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences. I have made some putting videos and now judgments are being made about how to apply certain parts of the technique to the full swing. Patience people, please. You can hurt your heels by jumping to conclusions.

Craig
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15323

  • phily
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(top right) = last swing. throwing away allot of power. you've got to let those hands pass the ball no matter what and allow your body to square the clubface.


Last Edit: 3 years 1 month ago by phily.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15336

  • Doug Burke
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Phily,

This is the longest shot I have ever captured on video. It carried ~280 yards and rolled out to 360 yards...sure it had something to do with the beautiful young lady, Melissa, who was watching me...kidding around. Unfortunately, it was shot from down the line so you will not be able to compare to the side view exactly, but I would like to know if you can tell if I am throwing away a lot of power. In these latest swings, I was hitting them about ~260 carry and rolling out to 300 yards so that felt like plenty of power. When I look at the frames, I agree it looks like I am throwing away a lot. As Tim pointed out, I worked for months doing what Lee Comeaux thought I should do and I picked up a lot of distance. Dave Tutleman analyzed it and said it was due to the tighter radius in transition and wrote a nice paper explaining why. Doing a conventional swing, I thought my game was toast because of a severe distance loss over the years. I am using my hands a lot more now in a different way and went away from a conventional swing. Martin's Most Powerful Move is what I have been working on since and that is very similar in that it allows you to hit with your hands. I'll have to see if I can keep my left bicep more connected to my left pec and see if using less hands and more rotary body motion will produce more power, but I am thinking not as I don't think my body will be able to handle that. You can see how I play the ball out of the middle of my stance on my sagital plane and stay left so I can compress the heck out of the golf ball with my hands. It is a little different way to hit the ball, I know, but it definitely is working well for me. I'll go back to the drawing board and see if I can reproduce the impact position you want so we can compare the results.

Martin,
Nice feedback as usual. I will definitely work on getting both sides equal.

Craig,
Yes, this is why I said earlier that I was extrapolating from your putting videos and did caution people. I am not getting any younger so hopefully a detailed description of your DynAlign will come out soon which will make it easier for me to experiment with your concept in the exact sequence that you invented. Really appreciate your feedback and looking forward to working with you.

Thanks,
Rock
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15341

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Re: Lee Comeaux - becoming aware of the role of how the right arm tucks, joins the hips or just generally works in the swing would account for a good deal of improved path and swing speed especially if you were using only arm speed before. But I would really be understating the importance of further researching this position used with rotation and committing to and keeping axis tilt while holding lag. If you will take your hands no further than right shoulder height on the back swing it will be easier to get a grasp and make work this turn with late (for you) release.
Part of what Lee is generating is 'flash speed'. There are so many ways to hit the ball and as long as you are comfortable and consistent then that's that.
But my view is that you're a big guy and 260 carry should be no problem for you 24/7 IF you are using your body well. What you are seeking is effortless power with consistency. And again if it's working then that's your swing and no one should tell you different.
Especially someone who is suggesting that this imaginary creature called effortless power with consistency exists. Just because I want you to work on resisting the urge to swing the arms and instead rotate the tucked right elbow, straight left arm and hinged wrists slowly and comfortably around your downswing axis tilt until they are almost on top of the ball before letting things go does not guarantee results. This is your journey and you have to consider the source while trusting your instincts. fwiw - practicing with a 3 or 4 iron or a hybrid can allow you to feel the differences easier because there is often some 'bash factor' involved in swinging a driver - it just happens.

btw- As someone who used to hit wicked hard with their hands for years and almost permanently damaged the tendons in my wrists I can tell you that I now leave the hands out of it and things are better and simpler. Both Martin & Lee were born with Popeye DNA. I understand you are working out so if you're going to go down this path I would look into how to properly develop hand arm strength. And easy does it with warming up the tendons and nothing heavy for you because golf is already putting a demand on them & recovery time is critical. More maintenance than building.

For now, no matter what technique you are training, grip down on the driver for more consistent results until whatever you are working in is grooved.

As far as the video goes I perceived what I saw in the other - a sense of making a full swing work quickly 'with' the right side instead of working the right side 'under & around'. That said you're playing better than 80% of the golfing public.


(Below are some stills of Lee, even he has his hands & shaft leading the ball, if only a bit)
Last Edit: 3 years 1 month ago by phily.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15347

  • Doug Burke
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Phily,
God is #1, Health is #2, Family #3, Work #4, Golf #5 is how I live my life. As far as trusting my instincts, I will first verify (if I can) what the source is telling me to determine who I can trust. It will take an incredible amount of time and energy from both of us before we will have mutual trust and respect. If me and you were in front of a firing squad, I don't think either one of us would take the bullet for each other. There are a handful of people on this earth who would take a bullet for me, but I wouldn't let them.

As far as your comments go, what you say makes sense to me. As I said, I will experiment with what you have told me and let you know how it goes. I don't believe that it will help me get further, but I will still try because I may be wrong and I want to get better. Agreed, that being a popcorn hitter and not being able to carry it 280 yards on a string 24/7 for someone of my size doesn't make a lot of sense so the journey continues to find the answers. The issue I have is I am not sure that my body can withstand a lot more movement, but perhaps it will be helpful to use my body more efficiently which you have clearly shown that I am not.

Thanks,
Rock
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15348

Rock,
This is my opinion on your situation. We have traveled own similar roads with golf, I see a lot of the same problems/simlarities with your swing and mine. I know that your body moves plenty fast enough to produce powerful golf shots. I'm in the same situation where I'm trying to put the finishing touches on an otherwise good golf swing. I know everyone is correct in saying you need to get from the Y to the y. Martin can really help you here if you pay attention to what he says. He summed up my swing problems immediately and it is simular to yours. We are not utilizing the right axis correctly. The sit down move, behind the ball, feels like behind the right leg, will get you where you want to go. Go to the driving range, put your left foot on a bucket and hit the ball. If you turn correctly and don't throw your hands at the ball you will produce powerful golf shots. I have done this, yesterday in fact, and it's hard at first, but once you find it you will realize that it is not a violent throwing of the body, it is just a turn. The sensation that I get when I do this is I'm hitting the ball on the other side of the arc and it is very powerful. These sensations are new to me and I'm no golf pro, but thought I would throw my $.02 in. I would like to see you video yourself hitting balls like this F/O and I think you will see dramatic results. I also know that after you try it once you will probably not want to do it much, because you will duff some. That is why I recommend you video this, consider it a challenge. You want to keep your right foot on the ground, well, you have no choice with this drill. Try it!
One other thing, equipment will help you here. If you made a shaft so stiff it would not flex much at all, you would hit it dead left. I believe your clubs are enabling you to throw your hands at the ball. Hogan had the most lag and he also had the stiffest shafts
Last Edit: 3 years 1 month ago by JASON RICHARDSON.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15349

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Hi Rock,

All I wanted was to let you see what I observed, once that is done any student of the swing/game will start the process on their own. We often back into things, or learn things about the swing out of sequence so to speak because we see the potential of 'advanced moves'. Everything you have been working on with Martin & Lee will only pay dividends, I feel, once combined with a trust of relaxed core rotation.
My comment about 'considering the source' was a self deprecating remark aimed at myself. Knowing that you don't know me I picked up on my own hubris of telling another what I think they should do. (I could be a 250 lb transgender lesbian sitting in a skid row crack den with a wifi connection who has never picked up a golf club - dreams do come true you know).
'Instincts' is one of those 'flaky' words (I knew it while typing it) but for the sake of brevity (ha) it seemed like a good choice to express the combination of decision making processes we all use to arrive at a conclusion. Perhaps 'critical thinking' is called for.
The method I use takes less of a toll on my body because I'm not fighting or trying to push my body (I practice & play quite a bit). What did you mean by "The issue I have is I am not sure that my body can withstand a lot more movement"? Do you have an injury?
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 1 month ago #15350

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Rock,
I photoshop'd the original image by extending the driver shaft and head to the ground and repositioned the ball to point out that the original photo looks very much like an impact position. Meaning if the body had taken it's time, comfortably, to rotate much more this 'beginning of release', shown in original photo, would have been well positioned. (obviously we would expect to see more hip/core rotation folks but you get the idea - the arms have fired first without the hips clearing much).

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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 4 weeks ago #15357

  • Doug Burke
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Phily,
You sold me with this comment. I decided to take it right out on the course in my Tuesday night league because intellectually you sold me on it. I shot one under and hit it fantastic. My long time playing partner said my swing looked simpler. I felt a little mechanical without giving my hands freedom to go anywhere I wanted them to go, but I can say for sure that I was wrong and you are correct...I need to figure out how to move my body in the correct way at the correct time. Here are a few shots on the range afterwards with my buddy Tony. Please let me know if any of these are the closest to what I need to be doing...there are a lot of differences in these swing as this is my first time trying what you said, but I wanted to show the first attempts to see if I got any progress. As far as my body, I am feeling good for a 48 year old...good enough to run 7 miles yesterday and pull an 8 minute mile on Mile 7 in the heat. When I compare my body to Tony, then it makes me feel like I have very little so that is what I am talking about in terms of brute strength and flexibility so I cannot get into the positions Tony can get in. Here is a video of Tony so you can see what he looks like trying to do the same thing. Tony is just learning the game so there are a few misses in here, but he is making big time progress. It is 300 yards to the trees in the background and he is now flying it into the top of the trees on his good ones and mine are rolling out to the bottom of the trees...popcorn hitter. I will always remember that you helped me along the way. You gained my respect by not folding like a cheap lawn chair and sticking firm on what you believed I needed to do.
Thanks,
Rockphily wrote:
Rock,
I photoshop'd the original image by extending the driver shaft and head to the ground and repositioned the ball to point out that the original photo looks very much like an impact position. Meaning if the body had taken it's time, comfortably, to rotate much more this 'beginning of release', shown in original photo, would have been well positioned. (obviously we would expect to see more hip/core rotation folks but you get the idea - the arms have fired first without the hips clearing much).

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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 4 weeks ago #15361

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wow Rock, I am so glad to hear that you are finding the very real potential in your swing. And it can't be stressed enough that your enthusiasm & commitment is making this happen and nothing else. All anyone here can be is an occasional voice in your head.
I get what you are saying about the a certain 'mechanical' feel to it. It becomes comfortable the more you commit to it. But it stays comfortably 'controlled'. This is because you want to feel as if you are only, slowly at the beginning of the transition, 'rolling' your torso around your axis tilt with a dead straight left arm and tucked right elbow all glued together really holding that karate chop hinge past the ball (some feel their sternum pass the ball). With balls that are not tee'd you will instantly understand how important it is to keep everything from firing otherwise you deliver fat. It's not a timing issue, it's a relax and wait for it issue. And, again, making it comfortable and work with a straight left arm is important, almost key. Man, I can not believe Tony is just learning, YES he is showing a very good grasp of much of what I would like you to think about. He is a great practice partner for you. It may look like he is 'contorting' his body or perhaps firing from the top but I would like you to watch carefully and see, or if need be imagine, that he is doing nothing more to start his downswing than a one piece chest rotation. Both of you take advantage of a great drill and swing at half speed. In fact MAKE him swing at half speed for the benefit of your observation. And Rock, forget about how fast he is turning to start, it's an illusion, if you don't believe that then watch how far you can hit the ball by starting your own downswing with a gradual building of speed - starting out comfortably slow concentrating on those connected arms. For the fastest progress please trust not letting your hands get any higher than your right shoulder on the backswing - Tony should watch and call out when the shaft is parallel so you can groove this. It's important because, while learning to use the body, if you take the club 'past parallel' it often energizes the arms or hands and tempo is lost. Whereas keeping the shaft parallel to the ground or less than parallel (as opposed to 'past parallel') allows the torso to lag/drag the club in tempo. Here's the best part - this swing is much easier to do than you think, and much easier on the body - takes time but you will see. Delivering lag to the ball is the key to clubhead speed and distance (don't ever force it) it's just mechanics and easier than you presently think. If you have trusted my eye so far then know this, taking everything into consideration under a very hard light, I can tell you for a fact you will soon own those trees in the distance.
(btw - Drew Art is really good at explaining this downswing stuff, better than me.)

So what was it about the "...250 lb transgender lesbian sitting in a skid row crack den with a wifi connection.." comment that 'sold' you?
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 4 weeks ago #15362

  • Doug Burke
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Phily,
What sold me is you took the time to give me a vision of what I could achieve...that was great instruction. I still don't know who you are, but I can tell by your actions that you are a stand up guy. I put a little heat on you to test if you were the usual shiat and run guys who have been taking pot shots at me during my whole journey at SITD and found out that you were not. You have a very good way with words and I did like the wifi connection comment as it showed you have a sense of humor, confidence, and you weren't going anywhere...you were willing to go toe-to-toe with me in a test of willpower to determine what it takes to find your optimal swing. I'll keep working on what you have taught me. Hard for me to believe I will own those trees or get it into the same zip code as Tony...did you study that last swing on the video and the one that I told him that is as good as a human being can hit a golf ball...you would not believe how far he hit those balls...unreal power.
Thanks,
Rock
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 3 years 4 weeks ago #15363

  • Russ Alexander
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Rock ....look how Tony's right hip is super stable ....that's were he gets a lot of his HIT
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