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TOPIC: Finding your Optimal Swing

Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31143

  • Doug Burke
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Dean Mitchell wrote:
Doug, I really appreciate and acknowledge as correct everything you said to me there. My frustration doesn't come from not having a willingness to work, but from having such a timing dependant action that can hit 14 greens two weeks ago and then go to this kind of striking.

Doug Burke Response: Glad you took that well...means you are not a meow and you will need some manliness to improve at Golf. Tour Pros have variations from day-to-day so it is part of the game to be able to play through variations and not spit the bit...I need to fix something right now...no, you do not. First off, you will likely not be able to know what to fix until you know your swing very well. Secondly, you need to focus on what you are doing right on the course and not get into what you are doing wrong that is the first step in your game spiraling down the toilet like the crap you take every day. I don't want any toilet jobs out on the golf course. Thirdly, you are not a scratch golfer so consider your self fortunate to know what it feels like to his 14 greens instead of how unfortunate you are to hit it like crapola.

Yes, my practice sessions are completely pointless and unstructured. I was worried about the area I chose to work in today because it was very uneven. Instead of moving I moved my tee around a lot. Very undisciplined. I've become undisciplined with my set-up routine in play and practice when it used to be one of my keys.

Doug Burke reponse: Good. Telling your self what actions to take is the first step to improve. Please go out and do this every practice session. You will be amazed how in tune you actions will become with the target when you really focus. You will get very relaxed after awhile and then you will be able to understand better the relationship.

I'll go grab some sticks and get things better structured and work on that first move. How do you feel about making the right shoulder straight back the initiator?

Doug Burke Response: Yes, get some sticks and a tape measure. I want those hands in close to the body at address...hanging under your shoulder sockets. I want you to measure how far you are putting the stick parallel to the target line for every club. I want you to experiment with this a little and feel like you are crowding your self big time and then back off a little. I want your left heel on the stick that is perpendicular to the target line pointing at the ball...you can see my setup in the last video as well as the sticks. As far as the initiator, I want you to use something lower than your belly button. Dariusz said right knee for me. You could use left knee going straight out. You could use your crown jewels against left wall as the trigger and then back to the right wall on the back swing. Go for a 60/40% weight balance on your setup and keep the weight on the left as shown by VJ. I want you to feel what it is like to use your left side in the golf swing since you said you are a lefty. This will be a very simple move for you so you can use your body to power the swing. The main thing is keep your hands out of the equation as you change from a hand job to a body leading hand job. In this video, you can see John working with me to keep my hands soft...dragging the club along the ground using the body to drag it is very good for getting you to feel the mass of the club and your arms instead of snatching it away with your hands so you can not feel the mass.

Thanks,
Doug
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31145

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Awesome, Kenan! I would be very proud of you if you outdrove me. I would feel great. Bring it on. You know where Dulles airport is. I want to see you go eyeball-to-eyeball with me and see if you can stare me down. Glad to hear you are happy...means you have the love.
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Rock Mankenan wrote:
Rock and Optimal Land,

Got some serious changes accomplished today. My feels and sounds went from hacker to amateur tournament player today.

I will hit driver alongside Rock and look him dead in the face and ask him how he likes them apples. I might not outdrive him every time but I will outdrive him sometimes.

I have found a lot of easy power and control and that makes me happy.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31155

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Doug Burke wrote:
Dean Mitchell wrote:
Doug, I really appreciate and acknowledge as correct everything you said to me there. My frustration doesn't come from not having a willingness to work, but from having such a timing dependant action that can hit 14 greens two weeks ago and then go to this kind of striking.

Doug Burke Response: Glad you took that well...means you are not a meow and you will need some manliness to improve at Golf. Tour Pros have variations from day-to-day so it is part of the game to be able to play through variations and not spit the bit...I need to fix something right now...no, you do not. First off, you will likely not be able to know what to fix until you know your swing very well. Secondly, you need to focus on what you are doing right on the course and not get into what you are doing wrong that is the first step in your game spiraling down the toilet like the crap you take every day. I don't want any toilet jobs out on the golf course. Thirdly, you are not a scratch golfer so consider your self fortunate to know what it feels like to his 14 greens instead of how unfortunate you are to hit it like crapola. Sage words those. :)

Yes, my practice sessions are completely pointless and unstructured. I was worried about the area I chose to work in today because it was very uneven. Instead of moving I moved my tee around a lot. Very undisciplined. I've become undisciplined with my set-up routine in play and practice when it used to be one of my keys.

Doug Burke reponse: Good. Telling your self what actions to take is the first step to improve. Please go out and do this every practice session. You will be amazed how in tune you actions will become with the target when you really focus. You will get very relaxed after awhile and then you will be able to understand better the relationship. It's one of the things I did religiously before my extended health related lay-off when I could play a bit. Thank you for the reminder.

I'll go grab some sticks and get things better structured and work on that first move. How do you feel about making the right shoulder straight back the initiator?

Doug Burke Response: Yes, get some sticks and a tape measure. I want those hands in close to the body at address...hanging under your shoulder sockets. I want you to measure how far you are putting the stick parallel to the target line for every club. I want you to experiment with this a little and feel like you are crowding your self big time and then back off a little. I want your left heel on the stick that is perpendicular to the target line pointing at the ball This is for driver only or all clubs?...you can see my setup in the last video as well as the sticks. Oh, okay, I'll go review that... As far as the initiator, I want you to use something lower than your belly button. Dariusz said right knee for me. You could use left knee going straight out. You could use your crown jewels against left wall as the trigger and then back to the right wall on the back swing. Yes, I get the need for a trigger, but I meant a feel for the part of the body that initiates the move back. It's funny, but I have been starting my backswing with a very subtle version of Martin Ayer's MPMIG by drawing my hands in slightly towards my right thigh and lagging the clubhead slightly. I had forgotten this over the past week or so. Go for a 60/40% weight balance on your setup and keep the weight on the left as shown by VJ.60/40 favouring the left foot? Even for driver? I want you to feel what it is like to use your left side in the golf swing since you said you are a lefty. This will be a very simple move for you so you can use your body to power the swing. The main thing is keep your hands out of the equation as you change from a hand job to a body leading hand job. In this video, you can see John working with me to keep my hands soft...dragging the club along the ground using the body to drag it is very good for getting you to feel the mass of the club and your arms instead of snatching it away with your hands so you can not feel the mass.

Thanks,
Doug

That's a great video, Doug. Last night (before you responded) I got to thinking a little whilst looking at my videos. I realised I had lost my sense of the body in the swing and my impact position. I've always had that horrible pivot, but saved myself by not throwing my leverage away so early. I spent half an hour in the garden swinging my persimmon steel shafted driver as prescribed in Hogan's excellent training video in 5 lessons. It took a little while, but I soon started to feel the hands and arms along for the ride and my path was massively improved. Of course there was no ball to KILL, but it did remind me of the feelings necessary, which I thought important to share.

Thank you again for all your help and dedication in this thread and if there's ever anything I can do in return...
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Dean Mitchell.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31172

  • kenan
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Range Report:

Hit a small bucket today to make sure that I really knew what I thought I learned yesterday. I hit without an extensive warmup. All swings were powerful and contact was ok.

I wasn't on fire and I wasn't able to feel as much as I did yesterday. I had to wear a glove on my left hand due to some hotspots due to a new grip setup and I was stiff from not having time to warm up and the fact that I ran about two miles yesterday in my barefoot shoes for the first time in a while so my legs were a little sore.

My contact was good. My power was still there. The sounds were still there but they were obviously less pronounced. I think my "spiral" of improvement is getting higher and the cycles are getting tighter. Rock told me my learning style is like a spiral in that I constantly move from one aspect of the process to another in order to keep everything improving and I think that's how I operate.

I think I'm gonna run and try to hit some bombs at the course. Sunset golf!

**** Edit Note ****

Didn't hit any bombs but I hit it pretty good tonight. Definitely need to make sure I'm playing for a score more often. I want to play tournaments in the future so scoring and rescue shots and scrambling from bad lies is going to be a skill I need to gain experience in. My new swing has so much easy power it's really enjoyable to play.

Lucky shot of the night: holed a 45 foot putt across an aerated green for a birdie on a par 3. At the end of the putt, the ball bounced right, left, right on the aerated holes then dropped in the cup. Completely instinctual lineup and execution on my part. I let my caveman throw the spear and I killed the fish.
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by kenan.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31200

  • Dean Mitchell
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Okay, I'm back from my range session this morning and can honestly say it was the most productive and focused I've been in a few years.

I worked hard on my set-up and takeaway first of all working on lagging the clubhead back a little. This felt comfortable straight away as I've been using this move prior to my recent poor play. I did as you said, Doug, and had my hands closer to me. To do this I had to bend over some more to create some space for the arms to hang. I struck the ball better, but with a pull hook flight with absolute consistency, which is a shot pattern I used to suffer with A LOT.

I then moved on to working on my pivot as prescribed. I worked on feeling as if my left butt cheek was shifting towards the target as I approached the top of my swing and then initiating my downswing with a shift to the left with my left knee. I really liked this move and started to hit the ball reasonably and the path improved.

The other thing I really did today was to put the club slightly higher in my left palm than my previous teacher prescribed. This felt much more solid and secure (I have been wearing holes in my golf glove on my thumb and hand pad).

anyway, here are the videos, Doug. I hope you can see some improvement. I will admit that I forgot to take a tape measure and the 6 irons are teed to the ground as I wanted to keep them in the same place, but the bare lie wasn't helping my confidence.

Driver FO


6 iron FO
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31202

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Dean Mitchell wrote:
Okay, I'm back from my range session this morning and can honestly say it was the most productive and focused I've been in a few years.

Doug Burke Response: Excellent work. Now we are talking. I liked your setup and it looked like you were focused on the fundamentals of your setup and the target. This is an absolute requirement to improve.

I worked hard on my set-up and takeaway first of all working on lagging the clubhead back a little. This felt comfortable straight away as I've been using this move prior to my recent poor play. I did as you said, Doug, and had my hands closer to me. To do this I had to bend over some more to create some space for the arms to hang. I struck the ball better, but with a pull hook flight with absolute consistency, which is a shot pattern I used to suffer with A LOT.

Doug Burke Response: I liked how you were doing the lagging clubhead takeaway and your address position looked solid. I like when you are hitting it solid…even if it is right or left…keep hitting it solid and you will slowly start to straighten it out. I wouldn’t make too many changes until after you hit ten in a row and allow your natural instincts to work things out.

I then moved on to working on my pivot as prescribed. I worked on feeling as if my left butt cheek was shifting towards the target as I approached the top of my swing and then initiating my downswing with a shift to the left with my left knee. I really liked this move and started to hit the ball reasonably and the path improved.

Doug Burke Response: Yes, your pivot is much improved. I really like that idea of the left butt cheek shifting toward the target or sitting down in the backswing so that way you can simply turn with the lower body and thorax through the ball. The one thing I see in your practice swings that I would like to see you modify. It looks like you are trying to load your upper body in transition. What this does is creates a situation where it will unload in an improper sequence. I want you to let these forces naturally happen and not force something to happen. Please relax the upper body until you can feel your lower body start to lead the upper body. This is important especially in transition so the hands can float down to flatten your clubhead path through the ball. The hand swaparoo will help you get that feeling of the hands lagging the thorax lagging the lower body lead side that you are learning to create with your pivot.

The other thing I really did today was to put the club slightly higher in my left palm than my previous teacher prescribed. This felt much more solid and secure (I have been wearing holes in my golf glove on my thumb and hand pad).

Doug Burke Response: I have it a lot in my left palm and am using a reverse overlap grip which has been great for me. The grip is an individual preference. I would try a lot of different grips and find out which one works best for you. This is a very important process to continue to optimize as your swing continues to improve. You will start making adjustments as you continue to get more float in transition and get your sequence fine tuned.

anyway, here are the videos, Doug. I hope you can see some improvement. I will admit that I forgot to take a tape measure and the 6 irons are teed to the ground as I wanted to keep them in the same place, but the bare lie wasn't helping my confidence.

Doug Burke Response: I studied the 6 irons. Above is a comparison of the second swing that you gave a thumbs up. You have a high quality swing...continue to work on that and you will be helping me with my swing. You have a very good flow and I like how you complete your finish and point the club at the target which shows an advanced skillset. You improved the lifting in your backswing with your upper body. The difference I see now is look at the difference in the upper body between you and VJ... see how he has more of an upward and stretch to the right with his left throax off his left butt cheek....where you are more vertical. Again, I believe the root cause of what you are doing is that preshot drill I see you constantly doing with loading of the upper body via rotation instead of UPWARD stretch and rotation. This should be very dynamic and not a huge muscular stretch like you are trying to lift weight above your right shoulder and a stretch that you can maintain through impact...you are getting rid of slack and you must keep a sequence that allows that to continue through impact. On the last one that you hit fat. Look at the subtle changes you made in your setup...you got the ball further back in your stance which is the exact opposite thing you want to do to NOT hit it fat. This you extra lateral movement and you got steeper than the one before. You have to become convinced that a shallower attack angle through the ball is what you need and that is all dictated in transition with the float down and how you sequence the lower body with the thorax with the hands. Pay close attention to your divots which should be shallow and starting 1 to 2" in front of the ball. Reread what Phily said with his stick man and where the release is. You must focus on every detail to truly own this. The sound that your ball makes will tell you how well you are sequencing as well as the sound of your divot and the ball flight. Watch and listen carefully. Start tying your actions to these results. All of the data is there for you if you are aware like a CAT.
Thanks,
Doug

Driver FO


6 iron FO
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31204

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Got a question for you Doug,at setup how should the left arm,be rotated or not,reason,ive always had the elbows,pointed at the hip bones,,,ala 5-L.....im beginnining to believe having that lead arm in this position leads to mehaving to much forearm rotation or to soon forearm rotation in the DS
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31205

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Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, Doug, and if my swing truly can help yours along the way I'll be honoured.

Dough said "The difference I see now is look at the difference in the upper body between you and VJ... see how he has more of an upward and stretch to the right with his left throax off his left butt cheek....where you are more vertical. Again, I believe the root cause of what you are doing is that preshot drill I see you constantly doing with loading of the upper body via rotation instead of UPWARD stretch and rotation. This should be very dynamic and not a huge muscular stretch like you are trying to lift weight above your right shoulder and a stretch that you can maintain through impact...you are getting rid of slack and you must keep a sequence that allows that to continue through impact."

The preshot practice I was doing was to try and feel that left butt cheek move. I wasn't consciously thinking about the upper body at all. I'm having a tough time understanding what you mean by the upward stretch and rotation, mate. Any chance of a short video?
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31255

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RockElbowPocketsat9and329Apr2012.jpg

BHelbowtoelbow.jpg

biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/02...trium-perfectum.html

Alan,
I think Dariusz nailed it in this omne-trium-perfectum about what I am sense happening in my swing naturally in regard to the forearm and wrist movements. "When we assume that full ulnar deviation must be accompanied by palmar flexion we have to observe that it must also be accompanied by slight supination of the forearm."...I believe Dariusz is explaining what happens post impact at the fully released position...."We can add that of course full radial deviation would not only require slight dorsal flexion but also slight pronation of the forearm."...I believe Dariusz is speaking about the top of the backswing position. These two end points are the limits of what the human body can do with regard to wrist and forearm movement during the swing and you want to endeavor to allow you body to flow through these positions during the swing. In addition to these forearm and wrist movements during the swing, you also have the shoulder joint which is rotated over its full ROM during swing. I externally rotate the lead shoulder joint and internally rotate the rear shoulder joint at address. I have not read a lot of discussion in the about how the shoulder joints function in a swing so this is what I am doing in my swing. If we focus on the lead shoulder joint and how you would get the web pocket to face outward at the fully released position post impact, it would be fully externally rotated CW at the 9 o'clock position and fully internally rotated CCW at the 3 o'clock position. If we focus on the rear shoulder joint and how you would get the web pocket to face outward at the fully loaded dowsnwing position pre-impact, it would be fully internally rotated CW at the 9 o'clock position and fully externally rotated CCW at the 3 o'clock position. I posted my self above at the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock so you can see the web pockets of my rear and lead arms. I also posted Ben Hogan explaining the importance of the web pockets in his way as well as images of how he moved his arms in the downswing.

To answer your question with this backdrop of information, I am getting a lot of success with explaining how the lead arm folds in the follow through....how the web pocket faces out post impact at the fully released position. How does it get there is the question? It gets there with the ROM of the shoulder joints following the lead of the the rotation of the lower body and thorax. I want the full ROM of the wrist, forearm, and shoulder movements to happen fully during my swing in a flow. You must understand each aspect fully as well as the relationship of each movement to all of the others. You can also simplify it as Ben Hogan did with the web pockets facing out. Most golfers I run into are so focused on holding some deep lag position in the downswing that they don't understand that you have to get to a fully released position also in the follow through...you need both and you need a swing through these positions. I believe the forearms will rotate...pronate and supinate...at the proper time following the lead of the lower body, thorax, and shoulder joints subconsciously if you swing in the manner that I described in a flow. The lead elbow has to get away from your side at the 9 o'clock position and then fold with the web pocket facing out at the three o'clock postion using the ROM of the shoulder joints.
Thanks,
Doug

alan wrote:
Got a question for you Doug,at setup how should the left arm,be rotated or not,reason,ive always had the elbows,pointed at the hip bones,,,ala 5-L.....im beginnining to believe having that lead arm in this position leads to mehaving to much forearm rotation or to soon forearm rotation in the DS
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31256

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Dean Mitchell wrote:
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, Doug, and if my swing truly can help yours along the way I'll be honoured.

Dough said "The difference I see now is look at the difference in the upper body between you and VJ... see how he has more of an upward and stretch to the right with his left throax off his left butt cheek....where you are more vertical. Again, I believe the root cause of what you are doing is that preshot drill I see you constantly doing with loading of the upper body via rotation instead of UPWARD stretch and rotation. This should be very dynamic and not a huge muscular stretch like you are trying to lift weight above your right shoulder and a stretch that you can maintain through impact...you are getting rid of slack and you must keep a sequence that allows that to continue through impact."

The preshot practice I was doing was to try and feel that left butt cheek move. I wasn't consciously thinking about the upper body at all. I'm having a tough time understanding what you mean by the upward stretch and rotation, mate. Any chance of a short video?

Doug Burke Response: Dean, I am glad to hear that you were leading with the left butt cheek...looked to me like you were focused on the upper body so now I understand better what you were doing. It would be good if you would speak to what you are working on so I understand better. The upward movement that I am wanting you to understand is basically the seperation of the upper body from the left butt cheek so you can get your left shoulder joint away from your left butt cheek at the top of the backswing more like VJ has it. For example, if you are sitting in your chair, you can rotate your upper body CW until your left shoulder has moved toward the center of your body. You can also activate your obliques to stretch slightly upwards from there. This is what I am wanting to make sure you are doing fully at the top of your backswing as this remove all of the slack in your upper body so can use that in your downswing. A lot of guys get pinched up on the rear side between the lower and upper body without this upward stretch and understanding how to stretch away from the rear side by falling left into the left butt cheek in the downswing. With you, I initially saw no seperation between the lower and upper body and a complete hand job. In this latest video, I see a huge improvement in the use of your body. I am making sure you are aware of these details so you can improve further...swing more like VJ.
Thanks,
Doug
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31257

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Thanks Doug,going to take me a little to digest and integrate yr words,but the pics are worth a thousand words,i can see the difference in what im doing and what yr doing,,,,,,in my swing during the transition,on bad shot,which would be pulls for me,,,,,,,,the pocket of my lead elbow would be facing the camera,,half way down,,,,,i played around yesterday with at address with pointing the lead elbow targetward,and also i tried rotating the shoulder joint wich rotates the whole arm for me except wrist as my swing trigger,,,,in other words i believe my lead arm was folding to soon,,,,,,yr thoughts
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31258

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Doug Burke wrote:
Dean Mitchell wrote:
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, Doug, and if my swing truly can help yours along the way I'll be honoured.

Dough said "The difference I see now is look at the difference in the upper body between you and VJ... see how he has more of an upward and stretch to the right with his left throax off his left butt cheek....where you are more vertical. Again, I believe the root cause of what you are doing is that preshot drill I see you constantly doing with loading of the upper body via rotation instead of UPWARD stretch and rotation. This should be very dynamic and not a huge muscular stretch like you are trying to lift weight above your right shoulder and a stretch that you can maintain through impact...you are getting rid of slack and you must keep a sequence that allows that to continue through impact."

The preshot practice I was doing was to try and feel that left butt cheek move. I wasn't consciously thinking about the upper body at all. I'm having a tough time understanding what you mean by the upward stretch and rotation, mate. Any chance of a short video?

Doug Burke Response: Dean, I am glad to hear that you were leading with the left butt cheek...looked to me like you were focused on the upper body so now I understand better what you were doing. It would be good if you would speak to what you are working on so I understand better. The upward movement that I am wanting you to understand is basically the seperation of the upper body from the left butt cheek so you can get your left shoulder joint away from your left butt cheek at the top of the backswing more like VJ has it. For example, if you are sitting in your chair, you can rotate your upper body CW until your left shoulder has moved toward the center of your body. You can also activate your obliques to stretch slightly upwards from there. This is what I am wanting to make sure you are doing fully at the top of your backswing as this remove all of the slack in your upper body so can use that in your downswing. A lot of guys get pinched up on the rear side between the lower and upper body without this upward stretch and understanding how to stretch away from the rear side by falling left into the left butt cheek in the downswing. With you, I initially saw no seperation between the lower and upper body and a complete hand job. In this latest video, I see a huge improvement in the use of your body. I am making sure you are aware of these details so you can improve further...swing more like VJ.
Thanks,
Doug

I'll be sure to let you know what I'm working on, Doug. Communication is the key after all. :)

After I spoke to you last I went back and tried to figure out what you were wanting me to do with the left shoulder and remembered that my last teacher wanted me to work on getting my left shoulder more over my right side to make the most of that power source, but we hadn't gotten to that part yet before I parted with him. I see that in VJ's swing. I did a quick video last night in the back garden after really studying VJ's lower body action. This feels like I'm doing what he's doing and VERY different to the move I was making the other day with my left butt cheek. I'm basically concentrating on getting my RIGHT butt cheek more towards the target. I don't know if this is overcooking it, but it facilitated a massive shoulder turn. Let me know what you think and if it's the right path to be going down.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31261

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Alan,
Yes, what you are saying makes perfect sense. You understand what I was saying. You knew what needed to happen, but it was a little out of sequence...too soon. I find that happens if I am trying to force something to happen. It takes 200 ms for a command to reach your body so it happens out of sequence. You have to practice the sequence you know how to do until ultimately you can do it on auto pilot. It takes a lot of dedication and perserverance to get to that point, but that is the journey. You have to believe that is the case that your body can actually do all of this automatically...it can also do what you don't want it to do automatically....therefore it is helpful to make a decision on what you want to do and then do it. There are so many options and God gave each person something different so it is a very individual journey. In addition, your body is constantly changing as you age so you have to be very aware of what is actually happening...not what you wish you have or used to have or could have had...honestly do have. For example, you hear announcers on TV say he used his massive forearms to crush the ball...this isn't going to help me if I do not have that...I want to hear how he hit the ball and why it worked. It is equal to saying if you had a size 13 wide you would be great in the sack...this is how I hear most golf swing analysts on TV...makes for a great sound bite, but it is useless as an analysis. You can still be great if you do not have that but how and why and could you convince someone of it? :) I really go out of my way to really understand my self as well as others and explain the how and the why. I believe this is the key to ultimately owning what you are doing and believing it is optimum for you. If you do not believe it, then you are always not satisfied with what God gave you and what you are doing with it.
Thanks,
Dougalan wrote:
Thanks Doug,going to take me a little to digest and integrate yr words,but the pics are worth a thousand words,i can see the difference in what im doing and what yr doing,,,,,,in my swing during the transition,on bad shot,which would be pulls for me,,,,,,,,the pocket of my lead elbow would be facing the camera,,half way down,,,,,i played around yesterday with at address with pointing the lead elbow targetward,and also i tried rotating the shoulder joint wich rotates the whole arm for me except wrist as my swing trigger,,,,in other words i believe my lead arm was folding to soon,,,,,,yr thoughts
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31262

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VJTroliovsDean3May2012.jpg



I'll be sure to let you know what I'm working on, Doug. Communication is the key after all. :)

After I spoke to you last I went back and tried to figure out what you were wanting me to do with the left shoulder and remembered that my last teacher wanted me to work on getting my left shoulder more over my right side to make the most of that power source, but we hadn't gotten to that part yet before I parted with him. I see that in VJ's swing. I did a quick video last night in the back garden after really studying VJ's lower body action. This feels like I'm doing what he's doing and VERY different to the move I was making the other day with my left butt cheek. I'm basically concentrating on getting my RIGHT butt cheek more towards the target. I don't know if this is overcooking it, but it facilitated a massive shoulder turn. Let me know what you think and if it's the right path to be going down.
[/quote]

Doug Burke Response: Yes, you now understand what I wanted you to understand. You can see in the image that you are moving in the correct direction. Study how VJ's left butt cheek moves relative to the line he drew and when...frame through his swing over and over and become aware of his left butt cheek and left shoulder horizontal seperation. You are slightly delaying in moving left compared to him. Getting left slightly sooner will allow you to get a little more stretch in transition and get more left butt to left shoulder horizontal seperation like VJ.
Thanks,
Doug
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31263

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Thanks Doug, I'll work on that. At the moment it's very alien and feels like I'm falling left, which I think you said earlier you wanted me to feel, but I can see from watching VJ that my sequence needs work. It's all good fun to work like this though knowing the goal. :)
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31264

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Thanks Doug,yes yr body absolutely changes as we get older,my lower body,legs butt,not near as strong as they once were,this has been ajourney for me,ive lways been able to play decent golf,just with sheer athletic ability,knew some things were wrong because of inconsistency,,i cant tell you the times,my rounds usually consist of under par on one side over par on the other,things begin to breakdown,you know,one of the things that has helped me is adjusting lie angle on my irons,have always veiwed and swung around my body,never realized how i had been adjusting to upright lie angles until i video my swing to upload here,there is probably still some standing up going on,which i had to do to keep the heel from digging in,did it for so many yrs,going to take time.,,,,what i learned from yr pics is ive always worked at connection,ive overdone a bit,i would start with lead arm ,shoulder rotated targetward,and in trying to stay /feel connected would leave it on my body,wouldnt rotate until near the top, which would in the DS make it get stuck on my chest which im forced to fold it early,,,,,or not turn through.....anyway i think you have cleared up a misunderstanding of things on my part,as i sit here and think about no wonder i feared left so much
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31287

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I think I just had an "aha" moment after re-reading your past few posts to me, Doug, and watching VJ over and over in V1. I can't believe I didn't get that relationship between the upper left body and the left butt cheek. When you get some distance between them you REALLY feel wound up, but with loads of room for the arms. I'll do a little video tomorrow at the range to see if I've understood this move.

Oh, and I wanted to add that despite a chronic condition for a dozen years I've started to run. Just baby steps, but I am really hopeful this will give me the energy and strength to move forward with my swing. The only reason to be in this thread, after all, is because we want to own our swing so we can play GOLF.
Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Dean Mitchell.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31334

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Hi Doug and anyone else interested!

The following film is me working on that separation between the upper left side of the body and the left butt cheek. you can see from the time it takes me to move that I'm not comfortable with it, but if it's a correct motion I'll integrate it. Looking at it again it looks like I'm closer in my initial practice swing than the fuller version.

Last Edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Dean Mitchell.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31336

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Alan,
Good stuff. Yes, you maintain connection in a flow...I have tried to force positions and I found out just like you that it causes issues in the sequence such as getting stuck and hitting it crooked. You pass through many positions in any swing that you might endeavor to do and you must have an overall vision of what you are doing or else you can go down many rat holes. Glad to hear now that you will make a change in your swing to allow these things to happen in the natural sequence. You should try the hand swaparoo because that definitely helps the sequence...if nothing else you will become aware of how your body subconsiously reacts in transition.
Thanks,
Dougalan wrote:
Thanks Doug,yes yr body absolutely changes as we get older,my lower body,legs butt,not near as strong as they once were,this has been ajourney for me,ive lways been able to play decent golf,just with sheer athletic ability,knew some things were wrong because of inconsistency,,i cant tell you the times,my rounds usually consist of under par on one side over par on the other,things begin to breakdown,you know,one of the things that has helped me is adjusting lie angle on my irons,have always veiwed and swung around my body,never realized how i had been adjusting to upright lie angles until i video my swing to upload here,there is probably still some standing up going on,which i had to do to keep the heel from digging in,did it for so many yrs,going to take time.,,,,what i learned from yr pics is ive always worked at connection,ive overdone a bit,i would start with lead arm ,shoulder rotated targetward,and in trying to stay /feel connected would leave it on my body,wouldnt rotate until near the top, which would in the DS make it get stuck on my chest which im forced to fold it early,,,,,or not turn through.....anyway i think you have cleared up a misunderstanding of things on my part,as i sit here and think about no wonder i feared left so much
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31337

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Thank you very much Doug,ive read you and others talking about the hand swapperoo,not clear what it is,is it,,,going back with the lead,coming down with th e trail
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31339

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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31340

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Doug Burke wrote:
DeanvsVJTrolio4May2012.jpg

Dean,
I captured an image in the backswing before the transition to highlight the difference I see. Your upper body is moving nicely with a strong move now...you can see your stretch in your shirt. With the lower body, VJ is making a much more aggressive move with the left knee in addition to that. You are loading the right leg in a different way than he is. You are honing in on it, but that lower body move that he makes is key so you will be able to turn through the ball and reduce the lateral movement. This is important because a lot of lateral movement means that you will get a huge increase in tension somewhere and we want a natural flow throughout the swing with the body leading and the hands following.

Very excited for you that you started to run. Yes, take it easy and enjoy it. I run frequently. Ran in my first race of the year last weekend...8K, 5 miles in 44:12....about 6 minutes slower than my best in this race, but I enjoyed it this time and decided to encourage others who were walking during my run so I focused on that instead of lasering in on running my fastest. Got to know a lot of people that way. The winner of the race ran 25 minutes so he kicked my butt on the board, but I am not sure who had the better experience.
Thanks,
DougDean Mitchell wrote:
Hi Doug and anyone else interested!

The following film is me working on that separation between the upper left side of the body and the left butt cheek. you can see from the time it takes me to move that I'm not comfortable with it, but if it's a correct motion I'll integrate it. Looking at it again it looks like I'm closer in my initial practice swing than the fuller version.

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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31342

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Yes, I could definitely feel that focusing on the upper body stretch lost my awareness of the lower body move. That capture of yours makes it clear. I'll work hard on this and get it down. :)

Awesome experience with your race, Doug. It's clear you get an awful lot out of helping others which is a lesson to us all. As one of my favourite authors, Kurt Vonnegut, said, we're all in this thing together and the best thing we can do is help each other along the way.
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31343

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Alan,
Yes, that is one way to do it. In this video, I explain to Dean how to it in a different way...he said he is a lefty playing righty so I experimented with it this way to get an idea how it would work for him. For my self, I am doing it with relaxing the left hand or lead hand and letting it fall into the right/trail/rear hand since I am a righty playing righty. Experiment with both which will help you with the sequence. You can also do it very subtly as it bascially reduces tension in transiton so you can keep the clubhead moving. When you think about the clubhead and how it moves in 3D would this not be away to get it to circle back in transition as opposed to a straight back straight through vision. As I said, you may ultimately decide not to use it but I guarantee it will make your brain tingle.
Thanks,
Doug
alan wrote:
Thank you very much Doug,ive read you and others talking about the hand swapperoo,not clear what it is,is it,,,going back with the lead,coming down with th e trail
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Re: Finding your Optimal Swing 2 years 5 months ago #31361

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Some background:

15 years ago I was the typical mag reading tip trying hacker off 9. I'd never seen my swing and maintained my handicap by hitting hundreds of balls. I never felt in control of my golf ball and fought and OTT move forever. One day I read a tip that basically had me initiate the backswing with a push back of the right shoulder and a bump to the left with the hips followed by Hogan's turning off the hips. I hit the ball nice and sweet, but lost a club and half so dumped it. A year or two later I tried this again, but with a real extension of the left arm going back and WOW I hit the ball like never before. The feeling of the arms and club lagging behind along for the ride with no conscious hand hit was magical. for the first time I had a move that worked right through the bag and had me hitting penetrating baby draws a long, long way.

Then I lost it overnight. Nothing I tried allowed me to get the move back and I had no idea why. I went from golfing nirvana to hacker in the time it took to say FORE!

This period of ballstriking has haunted me ever since and it is the reason, the motivation and the goal behind my participation on this thread. I'm saying this now because some of the things Doug has asked of me have struck little lightbulbs in my head as I piece together the difference in my swing from that time to now. for the first time in 15 years I am absolutely convinced I will hit the ball like that again, but this time I will know why and how to own it.

Thank you, Doug, for your selfless giving in this thread and your tireless searching for the optimum swing.
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