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TOPIC: Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to?

Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4259

  • Tony Brown
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Hello all,I was watching videos on this site and others and noticed all the great ball strikers have one thing in commom and that is the club shaft angle runs up thru their forearms and into to their shoulders,one great example of this is Mr.Elk.
My question is how do they do this is it in how the grip the club or lie of club or could it be shaft lenght?Dose anyone know I would like hear anyones input,thanks.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4270

  • johnnywadd99
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i am a little confused by this question. because if you look at top ball strikers at the setup position from the down the line angle what you see is the clubshaft pointing at the belt buckle, with a definate change of angle between the angle of the shaft at setup and the arms which should hang naturally from the shoulders. if you are speaking of the position from the face on angle and asking why the shaft matches the left arm position in many good ball strikers position we have something completely different to talk about. there are many factors causing this relationship, including the grip (you see this relationship more in players with a stronger left hand grip), the tilt to the right in the shoulder angle of a players setup (partially this is due to the right hand being lower than the left on the club, therefore the right shoulder is lower than the left to accomodate this position) the placement of the hands slightly ahead of the ball with all clubs except for the driver which you want at the zipper of your pants according to harvey penick in the little red book.
Last Edit: 4 years 2 months ago by johnnywadd99.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4297

  • Tony Brown
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Hello John,I was looking at Mr.Elks last video and the down the line view looks as thou the shaft angle runs pretty close to the forearms is this due to the grip or lie angle or am I not seeing it correct,agin thanks for your input.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4336

  • johnnywadd99
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well, it may be the camera angle or it may be that elk is a taller player that is making it look like the shaft and the arms are on the same angle but i can assure you that from the down the line angle there is a difference from the angle of the arms and the angle of the shaft at setup. the shaft should be at such an angle that if it was lengthened it would go into the belt buckle of the player, and the arms hang down from the shoulders almost straight up and down. hope this helps.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4339

  • Tony Brown
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Yes thank you Johnny,it did help.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4342

  • Blake Burleson
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If you read into TGM "The golf Machine" you can find information on right forarm at address, magic of the right forarm and so on. It is not exclusive to the golf machine as to everyone that uses it but, it is something that is taught by TGM'ers..

Here is Brian Gay, you can see Brian working on getting the right forearm on plane. Brian Gay is a TGM guy who works with John Reigger but, Lynn Blake is shoot some video with Brian here.

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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4359

  • johnnywadd99
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great video, very interesting stuff. to clarify this with what i stated in my earlier post this video was about matching the right forearm to the shaft angle, which brian gay does very well. what i adressed was does the shaft plane continue up both arms and into the shoulders, which you can see in brian especially with the driver that the shaft plane at setup does not intersect the shoulders. all that being said though, im not a golf machine guy, although id like to learn more about it, and that video was really interesting.
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Anatomy and Shaft Angles 4 years 2 months ago #4365

  • Geoff Mangum
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Dear sockhill,

Where the top of the shaft aims into the body seems to me to depend on the hand angle off the forearm plus how the arms hang plus how the torso leans plus the length of the club in relation to ball distance from the hands and feet. If the club is at a fixed length and the lean is set, and the arms are not "reaching away from" or "reaching back to" the body but hanging naturally at address, then it all comes down to hand angle off the forearm. Wherever the forearm aims at the ground, that is where the ball should be -- if you want the shaft and forearm on the same line, wherever the shaft reaches the ground, that's where the ball better be.

Anatomically, the "lifeline" of the hand matches the axis of the forearm when the hand hangs naturally off the forearm. That's how the lifeline angle got made in the first place -- forearm hanging slightly forward out of vertical, hand hanging back into vertical off tilted forearm. If you turn your hand palm up and compare the axis of the forearm to the liefline, the lifeline angles off the forearm axis towards the thumb (true for both hands). If you "cock" your palms to move the fingertips closer to the midline of the body (clockwise for upturned left palm, counterclockwise for right palm), until the lifeline matches the axis of the forearm, that DEGREE of hand angle or "cock" is the one at address that aligns the shaft with the axis of the forearm.

Here's a picture of Stuart Appleby's arms showing how the hand hangs naturally off the end of the forearm:





So, how to do it: hang the arms and stand the correct distance back from the club's handle so that the hands' hanging naturally meet the handle. Keeping the hands cocked downward at this angle and setting the grip pressure should result in the club shaft being the same as the forearm axis, when the club sole is flat to the surface. If not, I would suggest the club doesn't fit you. But then again, I'm not a full swing teacher.

In putting, a natural hanging of the arms and hands at address REQUIRES the handle and shaft angle match the body, and that plus having the putter sole flatly to the ground defines the length and lie angle of the putter and the distance of the ball from the feet and hands. If a natural arm and hand hang is used in the full swing, then I suggest it's the same deal as in putting.

Actually, people have different length arms (some are not the usual proportionality with the rest of the body and have "long" arms or "short" arms). And people have forearms that hang at slightly different angles off vertical. If you just hand a person a club of length X and shaft lie angle Y, and the ball is a fixed distance away wherever the shaft meets the ground, the club's length will define the amount of spine tilt and torso lean -- long club forces the spine up towards vertical, short club requires more bend of spine to reach the ground. And the flatness of the club head's sole when it reaches the ground should also be correct. To do this in proper order is a) good setup first, b) club fitting second. One way to do this is to adopt a propitious (balanced, comfortable, powerful, biomechanically helpful) setup posture with arms and hands hanging naturally and a balanced spine tilt and forward torso lean (isn't that sound and helpful for the full swing?). If you then laid a telescoping club's handle inside the hands and extended the shaft out of the handle until it reached the ground, this would be the shaft length. If you then added to the end of the shaft a club head that is also soled flat to the surface, that is the lie angle. The ball position is in front of the club head's sweetspot, isn't it, or perhaps a bit further out?

Cheers!

Geoff Mangum
Putting Coach and Theorist

PuttingZone.com

Last Edit: 4 years 2 months ago by Geoff Mangum.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 2 months ago #4394

  • UK Neil
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BurleyGolf wrote:

That swing is beautiful, so easy, so simple.
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Re: Anatomy and Shaft Angles 4 years 2 months ago #4427

  • Tony Brown
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Thank you sir.
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Re:Anatomy and Shaft Angles 4 years 2 months ago #4430

  • Tony Brown
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Thank you Mr.Mangum,the life line in right palm has helped me get the club on plane in both my putting and also my full swing,agin thank you sir.
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This is interesting... 4 years 1 month ago #4649

I had never thought of purposefully lining up so that the right forearm was in-line (or parrallel) to the shaft at address "down the line". Makes a lot of sense I must admit.

On the other hand I do tend to line up the shaft with my left forearm at address from a face on view. I play the ball of my front heel on the drive and move it progressively back to just back of middle on the wedges. This presets a shaft lean on short clubs and has me square on the longer clubs.

Anyone have any comment on this?
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 1 month ago #4650

  • Tony Brown
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I would say it depends if you are righr or left side domint,I swing with my right side so I like to have the club shaft in line with my right forearm hope this helps.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 1 month ago #4655

Hi sockhill.

Yes I am also right side dominant. I'll be thinking about this the next time I go hit rocks.

IMO if you are left side dominant, you should be a lefty... I can't see that you should be "pulling" a golf club through impact.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 1 month ago #4671

  • Henny Bogan
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I'm a lefty who swings righty and most definitely pulls the club through impact with my left arm. Maybe thats why I can't get my handicap under 16. I've been doing it all wrong...
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 1 month ago #4674

  • Lee Comeaux
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ONLY WAY THEY MATCH IS TO FEEL AS THOUGH THE RIGHT ARM IS SHOOTING A PISTAL STRAIGHT DOWN AND SLIGHT TO THE RIGHT. Where does it go from there is the question just matching them up does no good if the motion is in the wrong direction. The direction the club is pointing is critical. Think of it more as standing the club up at address and impact.
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Re: Anatomy and Shaft Angles 4 years 1 month ago #4891

  • UK Neil
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Of particular enlightenment for me, the ball must be addressed off the toe since when the club is raken to it's impact position, it's then in the centre of the clubface. Smart.
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Re:Shaft angle matching forearms at setup,how to? 4 years 1 month ago #4937

In my opinion, one of the best advantages of having your left arm in line with the shaft @ address is that it encourage you to take the club back in a one-piece movement using your shoulders. If the shaft / forearm are not in line, there is an additional moving part and the tendency is to lift the club up with the hands, vs. swing it back with the torso. Additional moving parts = additional things that can go wrong!

Brant Kasbohm, PGA
Fixyourgame.com
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