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TOPIC: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts

Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16191

  • Drew Art
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I thought we could start a new thread to discuss Gerry Hogan's book, "The Hogan Manual of Human Performance: Golf" and his instruction and swing concepts.

Gerry's book was published in 1992, and has this to say about Gerry on the backflap: "Gerry Hogan, injured in the course of his professional career, came to make a close examination of the way the human body functions. He has been for many years an expert in the study of human motion, particularly in relation to his great passion, golf. He is an original thinker, with the courage to challenge orthodox views, and an inspiration that enables him to impart a fresh understanding of the basics of golf to any player, from the professional to the enthusiastic beginner."

The book touts itself as "the most revolutionary book on golf you will ever read. It will do more than improve your game - it will literally transform it."

The book is 96 pages and broken into the following short chapters, with illustrations and B&W and color photographs (many of a young John Senden as a model):

The Golf Swing - A new approach
Seven Myths to Dispel
Momentum Golf
Control of the Golf Swing
The Slot
The Power of Mental Imagery
Balance
The Grip
Posture
The Stance
The Backswing
The Drop Into The Slot
The Downswing
The Follow-Through
In The Bunker
Putting - Natural is Best
More About Turning
More About Levers
The Conquest of Fear
Women in Golf

Gerry has recently gained a lot of attention as the designer/engineer behind the Nunchuck shaft. I REALLY hope he will participate as we discuss his swing concepts here.
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16193

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I'd like to first discuss what I find to be Gerry's most controversial and counter-intuitive concept, which is what he defines by the example of a "trip wire."

In the chapter Momentum Golf (p 19-21), Gerry describes the effect of a trip wire, which creates radial accleration and analogizes to the hands and clubhead. Then, in the chapter "More About Levers" (p 87-88), Gerry writes: "The slower and more controlled the descent of the arms-hands unit toward impact, the more easily they can be decelerated to stop in the impact zone to allow the clubhead to catch and pass them, thus achieving maximum acceleration at the moment of impact. Conversely, the faster the arms at impact, the slower the clubhead. This ought to convince any golfer of the folloy of swiping with the arms and slashing with the hands."

Now, what I would love to hear more about is whether Gerry thinks that the hands slowing into impact is a conscious slowing movement by the player, or whether the slowing is an unconscious and direct result of the kinetic energy having been transferred to the clubhead, which in turn acts against the butt end of shaft which causes the hands to decelerate.

If the hands slow as a result of the kinetic energy transfer to the clubhead, then would not the hands decelerate/slow even more rapidly if the clubhead were acclerated faster with the arms and hands and the wrist cock angle was maintained even later into the downswing? In this scenario, the golfer would accelerate into the impact zone and maintain the wrist cock as long as possible, then would transfer MORE kinetic energy into the club.
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Drew Art.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16196

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Drew, seen this book mentioned on nunchuck thread. would be interested to read it but it seems to be out of print and used copies start from 80 something bucks on amazon. if it can it be had for a more reasonable price from anywhere else please let me know.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16197

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i havent read the book but i have been picking up on some of the concepts from the iseekgolf thread.
the idea of karate chopping the ball from the top is already something that is helping me feel and inside out swing. i crave new information, new ideas and thats why most of us are on here.

Australia produces some really good players and instructors - right now the biggest influences on my game are 4 Australians, Mr Ayers, Elk, Brad Hughes and Mr Hogan!

We should invite him to participate because from what i have seen on ISG, he will share his ideas freely but he is just not interested in debating with keyboard-warrior-golfers. He shares his knowledge, you listen, you choose whether you want to accept it. Fine by me.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16198

  • Andy F
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I've been enjoying reading excerpts from Mr. Hogan's book here at this link...

www.orbweb.net/golf/hogan/
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16202

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Breezy reading. On page 43 'The Mechanics' Gerry suggest "no logical basis whatever within laws of physics" for B.Hog's 'left foot splayed a quarter turn to the left stance' and instructs to 'disregard' such a 'theory'.

I do use this stance to some extent. I can hit just fine using a mirror image stance too if I choose. But the reason I adopted the left foot open stance is because I found (feel) less resistance to my right knee moving in, on the downswing. Thereby, seemingly, giving me a faster, easier hip turn. I also notice less left knee strain posting. I realize the laws of physics can be applied to almost everything but maybe this stance was B.Hogs way of applying the laws of physiology?
Gerry goes on to explain a simple experiment showing that by turning the left foot out you begin to limit rotation to the right. But isn't the reason for the left foot open to facilitate the more important downswing, or turning left? Using Gerry's example, turning the left foot out would allow freer rotation to follow through.

What am I misinterpreting ?
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16203

  • 1lovegolf24
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phily, wait until you get to the page where he talks about the head motion of Hogan and what his take on that is.
There is no doubt, IMO, that Drew Art's introduction of Mr. Gerry Hogan is spot on.

Gerry, judging by what I have read and from his reputation, is someone you can trust. That is vary rare in golf.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16204

  • Lee Comeaux
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I have spoke with Mr. Hogan a few times great guy and has the puzzle mapped out beautifully anyone would do well to read what he has written. have not read the book myself but in our talks I did not have to he has the Three Laws of the Universe in his corner like all of us do. You can learn a lot or just a little from him everyone is a different level in their motion but he can take you to where it is you think you must go. There are only facts and they are not flexible is advice i would give to anyone reading it. LESS IS BETTER and the tail wags the dog....
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16206

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phily wrote:
Breezy reading. On page 43 'The Mechanics' Gerry suggest "no logical basis whatever within laws of physics" for B.Hog's 'left foot splayed a quarter turn to the left stance' and instructs to 'disregard' such a 'theory'.

I do use this stance to some extent. I can hit just fine using a mirror image stance too if I choose. But the reason I adopted the left foot open stance is because I found (feel) less resistance to my right knee moving in, on the downswing. Thereby, seemingly, giving me a faster, easier hip turn. I also notice less left knee strain posting. I realize the laws of physics can be applied to almost everything but maybe this stance was B.Hogs way of applying the laws of physiology?
Gerry goes on to explain a simple experiment showing that by turning the left foot out you begin to limit rotation to the right. But isn't the reason for the left foot open to facilitate the more important downswing, or turning left? Using Gerry's example, turning the left foot out would allow freer rotation to follow through.

What am I misinterpreting ?

Who said you are missing anything lets just say you are not Deveating away from the Natural way. No not TURNING LEFT it is more like BEING TURNED LEFT. Ankle bones to you and me are EXACTLY like those rubber stoppers on a door at the bottom ( THE WEDGE TYPE). Anatomical man is a great place to start to understand. TURNING the left foot out will ALLOW YOU TO GET OUT OF THE WAY OF YOU. ITS CALLED AN ILOFEMERAL LIGAMENT its very key player to you and your body. Nothing free about a golf motion as far as they way you look at it. Its overcoming that freedom that makes the Motion better.


image002.png


SO you are forming the BODIES BOXES if you may when the left is pointed in the direction of the Forward motion of the ball. Everything to you will FEEL Level when you do this. RIGHT BIG TOE AND LEFT CALF ( OR RIGHT BACK OF HEEL) in pic are important to understand their ALIGNMENT in the front on view here.

Look at the pic again in neither stance situations is the LEFT foot PARALELL Big toe wise to each other. So try not to ever do that in golf.
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by Lee Comeaux.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16207

  • darryl tateishi
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phily,
Gerry's post some months ago in the Nunchuk thread has some relevence to the points you make.

phily wrote:
But the reason I adopted the left foot open stance is because I found (feel) less resistance to my right knee moving in, on the downswing. Thereby, seemingly, giving me a faster, easier hip turn. I also notice less left knee strain posting



Gerry wrote:

The toe end of Gary's left foot is pressed hard into the turf which indicates that his right side has worked out and around his left side during his downswing and his hands are travelling too much/ too far "down the target line" rather than working back to the inside and upwards. This is certainly a fast and sure track to lower back problems that can become very serious if not identified and eradicated.
Why that left toe position after impact is so indicative of a serious flaw is that it is a sure sign that balance is under threat. There is so much weight and force already forward of the side gravity line that the left leg snaps straight and the left toes push hard into the ground as a reflex to push the upper body back and up.
At this stage of his swing the left foot should be much more on the outside of the heel with the foot rolled up enough to be able to clearly see the sole of his shoe and his spikes. This is very easy to correct and will eliminate the threat of back problems that can even take you out of the game.
Correction is as easy as doing precisely what I explained to you about working the left hand dramatically in and somewhat up progressively upwards, out of the natural pathway of the right hand. It's not the act of working that left hand in and up that cures the problem, it's really the INTENTION to do so that completely changes the movements through impact and eliminates all the problems. The deep subconscious brain accepts the path of the hands that you have determined and it pre-programs the feet, legs and lower body to coordinate a sequence of movements that will turn the legs/ hips lower body out of the way of where you INTEND the path of the hands to travel.


Hmmmm.. tail wagging the dog?
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16208

  • 1lovegolf24
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justaguy, I am not so sure it is a matter of whether the tail wags the dog or vice versa.

I am convinced the head controls both.

I am also convinced that the left foot deviation from the target line is more of a balance issue for it's opposite.

It's all just natural motion controlled by the head.Without the proper position of the head, the hands are just guessing.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by 1lovegolf24. Reason: added comment
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16209

  • Lee Comeaux
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Well then look at it this way. The head controls every motion you ever do. Shanks are controlled by the HEAD so are Hole in ones. The head is never NOT a piece of your motion. Now its the lack of HEAD motion that is what I believe will help the part where you say.. NOT SURE then you say CONVINCED. So its safe to say your not sure you are convinced of anything except its NATURAL. What does Target line have to do with Golf any way. HOW BOUT LINE OF COMPRESSION.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16210

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Justaguy wrote:
Well then look at it this way. The head controls every motion you ever do. Shanks are controlled by the HEAD so are Hole in ones. The head is never NOT a piece of your motion. Now its the lack of HEAD motion that is what I believe will help the part where you say.. NOT SURE then you say CONVINCED. So its safe to say your not sure you are convinced of anything except its NATURAL. What does Target line have to do with Golf any way. HOW BOUT LINE OF COMPRESSION.

justaguy, based on my experience, I will say convinced and a matter of fact.

Line of compression is matter of a point on a circle that meets a circle.There is no line of compression. Now the angle that the torque is applied is directly ralated to the position of the foot and the head that balances these forces.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by 1lovegolf24.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16211

Justaguy wrote:

image002.png


Look at the pic again in neither stance situations is the LEFT foot PARALELL Big toe wise to each other. So try not to ever do that in golf.

Good enough for Da Vinci....good enough for me.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16212

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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16213

I started reading (Gerry Hogan) from the link that Andy shared. I haven't read what's on-line entirely yet, but was very interested in how he was talking about the importance of the relationship between the ball position and the RIGHT foot.

Can anyone with knowledge of Gerry's work comment on this?
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16218

  • Jack Lane
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Thanks Andy! :cheer: I've heard of Gerry's book and after reading the link, I only wish I had read it 11 yrs ago when this game hooked me!!! It would have helped me reach single digits a lot sooner! I use all his ideas now! but have found them in and from Bertholy{Golf Construction 101), to Single Axis Forum, to IMA and from Authenticgolf.net. A big thanks for sharing. Jack
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16219

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Thanks all, for the explanations. Think I have a better grasp now.
Going to experiment some and see if it flies.
(just got back from the range where I tried adding lead tape to the driver - wow).

Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by phily.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16222

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Drew, i didn't get to read about that "trip wire" part as that wasn't included in excerpts Andy posted link to but from the parts i read i don't think, after quick read, what he wrote is controversial at all. Dr Theodore Jorgensen goes into all the gory details in his Physics of Golf book so check it out if you haven't already. he also mentions something which is usually called anecdotal evidence but i think it relates to what you are asking exactly so here is the full quote

"A friend and I were discussing this subject when he asked me whether I had a club that he could swing to feel this large torque. We stepped out onto the patio with a driver. He took a few practice swings, and then told me he was going to swing the club keeping his wrists cocked throughout the swing. This he did. To his utter amazement the shaft broke in his hands near the lower part of his grip and the clubhead and most of the shaft flew out over the garden. Later, I examined the broken shaft, but found no indication of any flaw in the metal. By not allowing his wrists to follow the club in its uncocking motion, the torque he developed was more than enough to break the shaft. I have not sacrificed another club to discover the size of this torque."

now i'm pretty sure it takes alot to hold it like that and i have no idea about exact numbers either but the important part is that once the club has gained momentum and torque from it accelerating is applied against golfer hands any attempt to retain the angle or accelerate the hands or both from that point on would have the opposite effect ie club deceleration as you would basically end up fighting the club that wants to accelerate with everything you got. my understanding of what Gerry advocates in his book is to let that torque from the club slow the hands down as it accelerates.

regarding "slow and more controlled descent" part. the book we have discussed recently, Schlee talks about "How many "o"s in your smo-o-o-oth; How much "pow" in your power?" which i reckon explains that part really well without going into physics of it.

lastly i think Gerry's book is pretty damn good judging from those pages that i have seen. the parts about "The Slot" and letting one rip gotta be the best tho, the rest of what i read didn't really mean much to me but thats just me. definitely worth a read.

heres my ten cents, my two cents is free.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16224

  • darryl tateishi
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positioning the ball relative to the right foot

Chapter The Stance


"The key to the whole question is that the golfers body pivots mainly on the right leg, not the left. The right leg anchors the golfer for most of the golf swing. It is only in the latter stages of the follow through that the body pivots on the left leg. .....
If the body is pivoting on the right leg, clearly the ball should be placed in relation to that leg, so that you can comfortably move forward and hit down on it. If the ball is too far from your right leg, you wont be able to reach it comfortably and, inevitably, you'll have to hit at from outside in. The conclusion from all this is clear- when you take your stance, gauge your position by the ball's relationship to your right leg, not the left."

Gerry touches upon ball position throughout his book ...why, how; this is a summary of his thoughts on the subject.

30 pages are devoted to the backswing, the drop into the slot and downswing.
1/2 page to the follow through. "Concentrating on the follow through will certainly influence how you hit the ball. But that influence will be destructive"

tail waggles the dog: intend the correct path of the hands and follow through is automatic

The deep subconscious brain accepts the path of the hands that you have determined and it pre-programs the feet, legs and lower body to coordinate a sequence of movements that will turn the legs/ hips lower body out of the way of where you INTEND the path of the hands to travel
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by darryl tateishi. Reason: spelling
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16225

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darryl tateishi,

Mr. Gerry Hogan is very specific in his book as to the head, it's movement, importance to the swing, and the hands controlling the swing.

Mr. Ben Hogan is very specific as to the importance of the waggle.it is a rehearsal of the swing.

If you don't waggle, with the exact motion of the shot, the rest of the body has no blueprint for the swing, IMO.

The head leads the body and the hands execute the swing.

Great minds think alike.

We are all fortunate to be able to visit the past and present and see jut what the golf swing i all about.


From Hogan to Hogan, masters of the game.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16226

  • Lee Comeaux
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Guys why dont you just ask Gerry what Gerry means I did. If he loses you that means he is telling you something YOU DONT KNOW therefore you are learning something. Like raising your hand and asking a question in school cause you did not know the answer...You are looking to hard and to deep. The Human head has its own axis independent of the body mass. That is the top of the golf motion theneck down is the bottom. Most people split their motion at the hips. It works SOMETIMES but the base of the neck works ALL THE TIME. So that puts center of mass at the base of the throat in between the right and left armpits. Just sayin if he is here on the site just ask him, you just have to be prepaired to ahndle the fact that he is RIGHT and you may be LESS RIGHT. Nobody is wrong just not all the way to the RIGHT answer. Gerry can take you there. So can a few others here on the forum...
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16227

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Ilovegolf 24, said:

Mr. Gerry Hogan is very specific in his book as to the head, it's movement, importance to the swing, and the hands controlling the swing.

Gerry wrote:

"What about all the other theories?
.....Pros and amateurs have this one thing in common. They are all trying to discover the secret of the perfect golf swing and usually they are trying to discover it from each other. The result is mutual confusion on a vast scale.

The essence of the golf swing

Put another way, we have to make a new and learned skill override a natural action. The is the real challenge of golf.

Control of the Golf Swing

.....If you try to consciously control more than one element of your swing, you are sure to make a mess of it"

While reference to the waggle may be in Gerry's book, I havent found it.

Ilovegolf24 said:
"The head leads the body and the hands execute the swing.

Great minds think alike."

This may be your opinion, which you are entitled.

Gerry Hogan has never said that the hands execute the swing and we will never know if
Ben Hogan understood the golf swing in terms of simple mechanics, as Gerry Hogan has, or he worked it out from experimentation and hard work, properly applied. Comparing their writing, it is clear that on many issues they do not think the same, or more specifically they dont express the same views on all issues in the same way.

I dont have a problem with this.
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16228

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justaguy,

In all fairness, I believe Mr. Hogan has his reasons. The material is all there. As Ben Hogan would say, "It's in the Dirt, go dig it out for yourself,".

Come on people, think for yourselves. The only swing advice someone can give you is how they themselves would do it.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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Re: Gerry Hogan Swing and Instruction concepts 2 years 7 months ago #16229

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darryl tateishi wrote:
Ilovegolf 24, said:

Mr. Gerry Hogan is very specific in his book as to the head, it's movement, importance to the swing, and the hands controlling the swing.

Gerry wrote:

"What about all the other theories?
.....Pros and amateurs have this one thing in common. They are all trying to discover the secret of the perfect golf swing and usually they are trying to discover it from each other. The result is mutual confusion on a vast scale.

The essence of the golf swing

Put another way, we have to make a new and learned skill override a natural action. The is the real challenge of golf.

Control of the Golf Swing

.....If you try to consciously control more than one element of your swing, you are sure to make a mess of it"

While reference to the waggle may be in Gerry's book, I havent found it.

Ilovegolf24 said:
"The head leads the body and the hands execute the swing.

Great minds think alike."

This may be your opinion, which you are entitled.

Gerry Hogan has never said that the hands execute the swing and we will never know if
Ben Hogan understood the golf swing in terms of simple mechanics, as Gerry Hogan has, or he worked it out from experimentation and hard work, properly applied. Comparing their writing, it is clear that on many issues they do not think the same, or more specifically they dont express the same views on all issues in the same way.

I dont have a problem with this.

Mr. Ben Hogan makes reference to the waggle in his book. Also, I am not comparing both Hogan's books either.

Well, maybe I am, but come on. The writing is on the wall. I have no further comment in this thread.

Mark, 1lovegolf24
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