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Bradley Hughes wrote:


Bradley, I am not here to argue, if you guys would like to believe that one can deliver shaft flex to the ball - fine with me. The intentions you spoke about are very noble but its a physical utopia, unfortunately. AFAIK, scientists already prove what must happen with shaft during the motion in the context of torque forces. Shaft would simply break if one, of course hypothetically, could prevent it from de-torquing in the second part of the downswing.
Watch slo-mo of best ballstrikers from the steel era on a good programme of the V1Pro type and you will not see shafts bent like on Festus's photo in this part of the swing.

Cheers

Point taken Dariusz...I am not here to argue either
Just trying to show how different intentions can actually make a difference and from my experience I am quite sure what these people say is incorrect.
I just went outside and made a video of two different swings. I used a driveway/alignment stick that has flex like a whippy shaft would to be able to really show the difference of intention so it is quite visible

left photo...I had all my intention on firing at the impact point...accelerate down and into the ball from the top of the swing
right photo... I had all my intention of firing after the impact point.....like the image I posted of late acceleration

I believe it can be done. I have a few pics of myself doing it as well as Hogan, Horton Smith, Greg Norman


The right pic is very achievable with an unpressured gravity drop or free ride down into the slot and then a late firing of all components.

Bradley & Dariusz,

I'm not sure who is correct in this debate---probably both.. We might have a case of the old parable about the blind men describing the elephant. They were all correct.

What I personally am gaining from the discussion is that the diagrams and photos that Bradley and others have posted in this thread today have caused several light bulbs to go off in my head about the drills that Bradley has me doing to help me create the right impact alignments and shaft pressures. Especially about letting the hands catch the 'free ride down" and THEN applying pressure to the back side of the shaft. The photos with the driveway alignment rods are like are like that old film of the Bikini Atoll getting blown up by the test of a Nuclear bomb..

Great stuff.

Ben

Bradley, try to do the same with a mass on the end of the stick (clubhead). Big torque forces are being applied exactly because of this mass because it magnifies everything.

Cheers

It can still be done. It isn't exposed as much because I am using a proper golf club in this one. This is a stiff shaft but the right pic shows a little bit of backward flex based on the same intentions of creating acceleration and not velocity in the swing



The big thing is this is ALL about intentions of WHEN you accelerate in the golf swing.
Once someone over accelerates too soon in the downswing the shaft slows down it kicks backwards and droop comes into play more and instinct says to speed that head up again we have to use the hands to make the head move.
If I accelerate later and can at least preserve the shaft, it is still accelerating and hasn't reached slow point yet and my body doesn't feel the urgency to throw the hands. It can use the bigger muscles of the torso to allow that head to keep moving through and beyond because the pressures of the swing haven't reached my hands yet and been exerted onto the strike
It all adds up to a faster moving clubhead at the moment of strike which is also under my control more
Here is a great photo of Tom Watson from the mid 80's showing preservation of the shaft and not many could get that 'crack' of compression that he did.

You have some strong arguments, Bradley. It is hard not to agree to you that the later the release of torques starts the later the shaft starts to lose flex and bent forward. Your pics (Watson's pic is incredible) prove without any further doubt that there is a big merit in intentions and execution of intentions. Your arguments wins here, I admit without hesitation.

However, I am still not convinced that it is possible to maintain the flex until the very impact. I cannot give up science so easily. Perhaps the unbending (which is simply a must because forces must be released -- at least, if we do not question Newtonian reality) happens just before entering impact zone and even gives an additional "kick". Here is what Tom Wishon says:

"How long the shaft can remain flexed after the force of the transition depends on two things in the swing. Firstly how long the golfer can retain the wrist-cock angle during the downswing and secondly whether the golfer can maintain a positive acceleration of the club through the downswing. Of these, the wrist-cock angle is of most importance. The very moment the golfer begins to unhinge the wrist-cock angle, the arms begin to slow down and any initial bending of the shaft created by the transition begins to “un-flex” or release.

The unhinging of the wrist-cock angle is called the “Release.” If the golfer has a very late release, the shaft will flex forward at the moment of impact. For golfers with a late release, the stiffer the shaft, the less the shaft can bend forward at impact. Conversely, for late release golfers, the more flexible the shaft, the more the shaft can bend forward at impact.

The earlier the golfer releases the club on the downswing, the less the shaft can retain its “forward bend” position at impact. For golfers who release the wrist-cock angle very early on the dowswing, the shaft will expend its forward bend position too soon, and will arrive at impact in a straight position."

Cheers

I was searching through my pics today and had this one tucked away to try and highlight what I believe (from my own experiences and from mis-aligned instruction) can happen with swing deterioration, specifically with the lighter upright equipment.
Greg Norman- obviously as I have stated was my hero growing up. Tell me a kid from Australia my age when growing up who didn't have The Shark as their golfing idol.
Here is an interesting comparison from 1984- 2008. I know that is quite a time span and things can alter over a period of time like that. However the Shark is a fitness specimen for his age so thought he would be a good example.
The address positions are basically unchanged with the shaft dissecting just above the belt into the navel.area.....At the top of the swing the hand position is slightly lower in the recent sequence and the shaft is a bit across the line (as people would call it) compared the 80's swing.
The impact and thru swing are totally different however..... Hands rise into impact. right leg stiffens, Shoulders stay squarer. Shaft extension is higher near the pecs and not the navel/center start point.
And on the way through the club is closed down to the ground as a result of the raising into impact to throw the head onto the ball. It is a very different action and I can't help but think the equipment changes over the years kicked the crap out of Greg's abilities to dominate like he once did as they altered his action and he may have received some average advice along the way also..



It is very hard to find a picture of Hogan, Snead, Trevino with this shut down face on the through motion. The face was much more in line with the position shown in Greg's 80's swing .
If they all just dropped the club down to the ground from this point they could address it and the face would be perfectly square to them....they kept their address and impact alignments complete to the finish point from where they just folded to the follow through end in their own natural motion from here.




Worth studying and thinking about and thinking why and how

Bradley,

Interesting comparison Shark was born in 1955 so he was 52-53 in the latter shots I know flexibility becomes an issue even for a guy in his shape. 2008 his playing career had taken back seat to business empire. Not playing to much then if I recall.
Might be the angle but the 1984 set up seems more Athletic 2008 back was more rounded bent over to ball more based on head position. His right foot is on ground 2008 pic at impact but not as much ground forces. Wonder if he had spikes in 2008

As you mentioned equipment much different . It would be great to hear Greg's thoughts

I wonder if being married to Chrissie in 2008 had anything to do with his posture?

Bradley

Tried the light bulb moment on the range very solid . I hit 50 9-3 sand wedges at 70 yard flag hit flag 3 times pattern was excellent. Going to continue working on forearm rotation thoughts while doing drills

I would highly recommend anyone doing Bradley's drills read His post previous page where he shows the Side by side picture with right hand only of the swing he teaches versus the swing the majority of instruction today teach.

Really great feedback if you do it in slow motion

Bill, In regards to Normans posture, I wonder if that was the period when Greg was working with Leadbetter ? I believe he went to him for a while after quite a while with Butch Harmon. Just a thought and I could be completely wrong

Bradley, when looking at these great photos and obviously admiring their talent to golf their ball I think one thing that really stands out for me is the WAIT time as I call it. I think most club golfers harbour that secret of fear of getting the swing over and done with as quick as possible so we tend to rush the transition and it all gets messed up. The Pros seem to take their time at the top and get set for that shallow inside path.

Doing your drills has made me say "Wait" at the top of my swing which is my way of saying just let it all happen and drop into the 4.30 line and then I can turn through with conviction. If I don't WAIT the drop is more OTT and the ball is guaranteed to go left or a big push as I stay on my back foot.

Hope my explanation and feeling of the golf swing and Drills makes sense ?

Cheers

Watched a bit of Robert Garrigus over the weekend. I love how he just floats down from the top of the back swing like a butterfly and then just explodes through the ball. Could be a good swing thought "Float like a butterfly, hit like a wrecking ball!"

www.youtube.com/embed/pRmzuxBmgnw

My latest youtube video - Peter Thomson

Thanks to Eyeball for his wonderful Bobby Jones image in another thread.....over at ABS we had a bit of fun with that picture and used it to analyze.
Obviously it is not possible to be 100% accurate but I would say it is very very close to showing what has happened with the evolution of golf clubs and the poor design by scientists who aren't well versed at playing golf who have been handed the reigns of designing clubs.
Today's clubs have one thing in mind....distance....with scant regard for precision. They are all designed with the sole purpose of selling for $$$ with distance as the selling point (you only have to listen to every commercial or look at adverts in magazines to know this as fact)...
The design of the clubs has pretty much called on golfers to just wail their arms around with little fear of missing the ball because of the size of the head with 23 sweet spots on it....so they can brag about the drive they hit that went 300 yards on hole #15....with total memory loss for the other 11 drives that went 2 fairways away or were cold topped into a ravine in front of them.

Bobby Jones driver (as shown in Eyeballs pic)......48 degrees lie angle



This goes 100% in tune with lie angle progression based around Hogan's famous 1 iron club from Merion which weighed in at 51 degrees





Then we have TW wielding a driver that comes in at approximately 57 degrees lie angle



That is a 9 degree difference which ultimately runs through the bag in similar increments.......It just shows what HAS to happen into impact to get that club to sole out. (yes these are drivers on a tee but it is the same premise as an iron).......your swing matches what you wield
The end result is a right field flick throw where the club flies off and away from the central core of the torso and the hands flick and roll the face around.



It is little wonder the golf world is having a difficult time finding the next Hogan, Trevino, Pavin shotmaker etc

so what degree of lie angle on a driver do u recommend for the modern player? how do u bend them so flat mine only went to 56 .... what do u like?

diz

Bradley Thanks for sharing your pictures and video's! Don't mean to change the topic ? But was half asleep watching Tigers 1'st round over in Abu Dhabi and I thought I saw all the things you talk about. He was the poster child for ABS and Bradly 's swings, or was I delusional! At one point the commentator kept saying that he was using Corey Paven"s swing ! Just saying.
Jack

Diz,
that is the battle!!!! unless we can get a company to special order one how we want it. I use the method of practicing with an old persimmon...1) for the flat lie angle of 48 ... 2) for the feedback of mishits....3) for the fact I can't just wail away on it and expect good shots
I then use a modern driver in tournaments that is set up as flat as I can get it.....but the trick is to not let the swing deteriorate by using something light and upright all the time. Practicing and even a few 9 holes at night with the persimmon really helps me keep my swing in check

Jack
Tiger's control is certainly better with the irons. His driving stats are still horrendous so obviously there are issues there still. His swing ..? well no comment really. I don't care much for what I see, but would have to watch him live in person to really get a good look at the ball and see what's it's doing and the sound before making a final judgement.
Chevron Challenge swing from Dec:...still steep shoulders and thrusting of right arm....but hey he is Tiger Woods and can play well enough with any action....but I honestly don't see much change physically except he is trying to cut off his follow thru by pulling his hands left with his irons....but doesn't happen with his driver


.

Bradley Thanks for the response. I think I see what you mean. His driver seemed more in control then last year . And his irons much better, 17 of 18 greens the first day! Maybe he can come back and be the Tiger of old, only time will tell ! Jack

Bradley,

Just wanted to thank you for a great thread. Especially love all the great pics! It's refreshing to hear a point of view like yours that makes total sense and is backed up by all these great ball strikers. I've read 5 lessons at least a dozen times and have tried to model my swing that way. Problem is, I never totally understood the book as I guess most people haven't either. And also I'm no Hogan so I shouldn't be trying to copy his swing anyway. Then add in some modern instruction and I'm now playing golf swing instead of actually playing golf. Oh yea, then throw in a 46" toaster on the end of a stick and I wonder why I can't get my handicap to go down much. Very frustrating!

I just got finished reading the Gerry Hogan book and thought it had a lot of good information. Have you read it? It seems like you are on the same page as far as the right palm facing the sky/ unnatural movement coming into the ball. He also is not a big fan of a prefect backswing...like you he says you don't hit the ball on your backswing. My last time out I concentrated on that palm up feeling and really trying to come into the inside corner of the ball and it made a BIG difference. I'm thinking that your drills will only enhance this feeling. Am I correct?

Thanks again for all the time and information that you have contributed!

Danny

@Daniel
Glad you are enjoying what has been presented in this thread.
To answer your question...No...I don't know Gerry and No..... I have not read or seen his book.
I have seen some of his posts on various places from time to time and like the straight forward approach.

BH I agree with you here if that matters the golf companies thought they could improve the golfer by what they wanted and not what they needed. The lighter more upright clubs are not the way to cure the slice or in my opinion distance it puts the golfer at more risk for injury kind of like trying to throw a lighter base ball hard. In my opinion that puts more stress on the joints and a snapping sensation of the muscles which (could) cause small amounts of hyper extension and increase the chance for further injury over time. The heavy clubs over the years provide an easier way to manage mass to muscle tension.

The goal for Tiger is to keep away from the 2 way miss and the driver is his struggle but a strong firing of the hips early even though it has been decreased is Tigers major issue in controlling path to face.

With Bobbie Jones in the picture above-mentioned he is swing out but the ball is starting down his initial Target line and not path so in my opinion the ball you see is going to start going left soon after and if it does not then the angle is wrong making your illistration off.

The flatter club angle coupled with a shaved heel give a player the ability keep the hands low with the face angle open and not have a closer issue.

Danny

If I may answer part of your question. I am about to start Drill No 4 and in the last 2 weeks something very good has happened with my swing. I am hitting the ball more solid than ever before, I'm longer (not that Im a massive hitter), Im more accurate and after several months struggling really badly I have just played 6 consecutive excellent rounds, so now Im consistent as well, especially with fairways hit and GIR.

There is a part of the Drills, especially No 1 that really opened my eyes regarding the path of the club that I had never realised or even seen when watching and studying various golf techniques. Like anything in life you get out the Drills what you put in and I for one am starting to reap the rewards.

Good Luck
Steve

Steve,

Thanks for the input. Great to hear you're playing well. From what I've read so far, seems like most of you guys doing the drills are very pleased with the progress and results. What is really appealing to me is the order the drills are in... starting at impact first and working from there. Makes total sense to know what correct impact feels like before trying to get there.

As far as equipment goes, I've never really liked the new stuff but of course I've used it because " it's supposed to make the game easier"! Now I've played blades for the past 15 years so i haven't been sold on everything. Currently playing my MP-14's and also have 32's, a couple sets of Apex blades, and a couple sets of older Hogan blades. Tried the larger headed cavity backs but couldn't get used to them. Love the look and feel of the blades I don't think that will ever change. Plus the forged blades are easy to bend flatter as i am short and have always palyed them 2* flat... actually just flattened my 14's to 4* flat. But I've been through more drivers than you can imagine and now am going back to a 390cc head with the Nunchuk shaft.

Not playing much this time of year so I figured I may start the drills so I'll be in good shape for the coming season. Thanks again Steve.

Danny

That is great news Steve and a great testament to you for putting in the work and allowing it to evolve into your action to the point it is there without conciously trying to do the motion.
It is no surprise that the students who have worked dilligently and sent their videos in weekly for appraisal and asked the right questions have been the ones who have seen the most improvement.