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Dean Mitchell wrote:


A big DITTO on that!!! Sure wish some of you guys that have had successful experience with clubmaking/matching will start a thread(s) on such. I'm totally confused right now because, after years of tinkering with my MANY ironsets and believeing that I knew what I liked, I recently bought a set of the old(1970's) shaft-over-hosel irons. The long irons are ~25g heavier and the short irons are ~45g heavier that anything else in my (previously coveted) pile of irons....AND, they are now my favorite irons. What the....?!?!

Thanks Burk Mc & Dean

There is a very good logic behind the way clubs were designed.

Flat- so we have the visual to be able to turn and turn like a baseball player would more or less if the ball was actually at waist high Flat clubs just make the left side of the course disappear as over the top becomes much harder to do and it allows us to be more aggressive with our turn and body and less prone to stopping the body and throwing the hands and clubhead onto the ball

Heavier- clubs had longer hosels and were muscle back to add more weight to the head and to keep the mass right behind the ball.... nothing like feeling the head when you swing and also f = m X a

Stiff- the idea of stiff shafts just makes sense as it assists in keeping club head movement more under control due to over acceleration, excessive hand action...I mean who would want a shaft to flex a lot and have to try time that bending with slowing or quickening of our hands to squarely get the face onto the ball for impact?

When club design got thrust into the hands of scientists in wind tunnels with velocity as a goal so they could tap into our human insecurity golf lost it's way. The USGA lost their balls to protect the integrity of the sport, the manufacturers knew they could basically make anything and get away with it, and the consumers fell for the marketing of it all because we didn't know better..... Golf become less art and more of a track and field event.

Even something like golf spikes- If you can enter and exit flat into and through impact there are major benefits and advantages to controlling your golf ball 's direction and distance. This is why spikes were invented in the first place as there is twisting, torquing and pressures moving horizontally and vertically when the club is swung correctly. Spikes assist in this.....yet now 99% of golf courses say NO to steel spikes for whatever reasons and our swing again gets hurt in the process. Less grip below forces us into again an upright arm/hand orientated motion where we can't grip the ground as much as we aren't feeling the traction from having only a few rubber nipples in contact with the ground
Was there co-incidence that Hogan had an extra spike in his shoes?...no.... he knew the importance of being able to use the earth to pressure and utilize and work against...and now we are playing in sneakers as your local clubhouse doesn't want to ruin their carpet or cos they are lighter and my poor feet may not hurt as much.......

These are just some basic things that I see from taking a back seat from playing for a while and being able to see things through my own eyes and discussions with a few guys and not relying on what I am being 'sold' by the industry.......

For the Aussie dirters

I will be back in Sydney doing lessons out at Twin Creeks Club in Sydney's west on the following dates:
Wednesday May 2
Thursday May 3
Saturday May 5
Tuesday May 8
Wednesday May 9
Thursday May 10
Friday May 11
Sunday May 13

Spots are filling up so if interested check out page 1 of my website bradleyhughesgolf.com for more details.

For the Melbourne guys who have expressed interest in coming in person for a lesson...as yet I still have NO venue to be able to do the lessons at. A bit disappointing to be messed around here in my hometown but once something happens I will let those know who have contacted me.

Flat and heavier I've completely taken to, but the stiff part I'm more concerned about. I'm not very strong due to health and only hit my 7 iron about 145. I'm concerned stiffer than apex 3 will rob me of even more distance.

Here is a great pic of Peter Thomson pressuring down....and shallowing the shaft behind him....not forcing it or pulling it down sharply....... this is a common trait of every great ball striker.......

It is a similar theme OVER and OVER with the greatest ....Jones, Hogan, Kite, Miller, Knudson, Player, Price, Trevino


This is the slotting of the club that gets some range of motion in the body to be able to turn the club through instead of throwing it through

Here is a great 2 frame pic of Ray Floyd ...who everyone said had one of the funkiest swings on the planet and Mickey Wright....who Ben Hogan said had the best swing on the planet
Not too dis similar are they when we see the 4.30 slotting , the wrist cock for the downward blow , the turn of the shaft and forearms into impact and closed shoulders to open shoulders into the strike, pinned right arm with bend.....great dynamics and look where it matters most...into and through impact.

Dean Mitchell wrote:



Dean,

I have similar issues caused by advancing age (64) and open heart surgery about two years ago. I currently hit a seven iron about 145-150.
I've tinkered with modifying shafts to change their performance, since dropping back from a stiff to a regular shaft produced shots that seemed to "balloon" and not have much penetration on them. I've tried "soft tipping" a stiff shaft, as well as "firm tipping" a regular shaft, both of which have produced good results (but slightly different ball flight).
If you can find a good custom club fitter, you should be able to get them to build you something that works for you.
The challenge will be finding new Apex shafts that can be modified for your Hogan blades.

Hope this helps.

Ben

Dean...Don't be afraid to try it. Mid-to-high bend point shafts (for me) actually "feel softer". I was fortunate to find a set of Hogan Apex Extra 4 shafts(high bend point) that were 1/2" long....and hard-stepped them twice(ie., 5iron shaft became the new 3iron shaft) which made them now 1/2" short, X stiffish and somewhat flatter(similar to what Gerry Hogan recommends). The golf ball still goes out-of-sight(maybe that's because of my 75 year old eyesight) and the shafts FEEL GREAT. I love 'em! There are plenty of high bend shafts out there....Try it; you may be pleasantly surprised.

Mid-to-high bend point shafts (for me) actually "feel softer"

Burk
For me key to using XX, XXX flex is as you say
mid flex point, AND lower weight steel or graphite
ie 100 gram or less, as well as, 1/2 inch shorter than today's std..


55 -59 gram grips provide a little counterbalancing /added weight to hands that encourages us to swing the handle/entire club, not just the clubhead.(Gerry Hogan)

The Nunchuk, stiffest butt and tip in its price range, is used by juniors, seniors and ladies.

I would rather stop playing than to loose, the consistent,solid, center face contact we get only with XX stiff shafts. Just go lighter and shorter.

I have soft spikes, and when I was playing yesterday I was sliding all over the place during my swing. I just could not get a good grip with my shoes. What are you guys wearing? Is one brand better? Right now I am using Nikes, but am willing to get something else if it can actually grip decently.

Right now I am using Nikes, but am willing to get something else if it can actually grip decently.

Jacob

Save some cash and just change the spikes:

I put these adjustable ones on last year and they work well. I set a few(left side front) to 'soft' setting where I want my left foot to move freely in follow through.



thesandtrap.com/b/bag_drop/softspikes_de...dow_tour_golf_cleats

Bradley Hughes wrote:



Jacks left shoulder is little down compared to yours but he hit fade his whole career, nice job with you're left arm at least its not bent.

Darryl, I thought the idea was to increase the overall weight as well as swing weight? I've used lightweight steel and graphite, but couldn't feel the clubhead. Are you saying that increasing swingweight, but keeping overall weight down a touch with XX stiff will help balance out any potential loss of CHS?

I'm comfortable reshafting my own gear and plan on reboring some old persimmon woods flatter too.

My driver and woods are awful right now, which is partly technique, but I'm sure the light and whippy along with too upright is killing me too. My iron game tells me that.

Thanks to everyone else who replied and added thought food.

darryl tateishi wrote:

Dean, lighter weight shafts would obviously rob you of overall weight which would be very hard to get back properly because that would require adding weight elsewhere and its not easy to do right if you dont know what you are doing eg adding more weight to the head would make lighter shaft which is already softer even more softer, placing weight in or on the shaft you would have to be careful with placement as it would affect how club plays and then you have to balance all that with keeping swing weight the way you like it. I been there, done that, got the t-shirt and I can tell you that from my experience its best to start with heavy enough components. I read somewhere that Ben Hogan played his preferred extra stiff shafts til he could no longer play, he lost quite a bit of distance due to his age but the feel of his preferred shaft, trajectory and dispersion was clearly more important to him than distance. You dont have to do the same but it might worth a try re-shafting one guinea pig club with a stiffer shaft and seeing how it works for you ie what you gain vs what you loose. You have mentioned you dont wanna go stiffer than Apex 3 but try Apex 4 they can be found on eBay, 4 is not a very stiff shaft and might work well for you, i cant say for sure but i doubt it would rob you of much distance if any. Hope this helps.

Dean Mitchell wrote:

I thought the idea was to increase the overall weight as well as swing weight? I've used lightweight steel and graphite, but couldn't feel the clubhead. Are you saying that increasing swingweight, but keeping overall weight down a touch with XX stiff will help balance out any potential loss of CHS?

Dean,

I thought the idea was to use XX, or XXX without loosing clubhead speed.

I think if you increase overall weight, go to XXX and keep length at 38 inch for a 5 iron, you will loose chs. I know I would.

XXX will virtually eliminate droop and kick the things that dont allow us to hit consistently, solid center of the face.

IMO thats the priority, and work the other variables to maintain chs.

My Nippon X shafts, tipped an inch were 100 grams uncut. After using 55 gram grips and adding lead tape to heads, total weight reduction from my previous set up with 118gram shafts is 10 grams. My 5 iron is 37.5 inches.

I think why X, tipped an inch works for me is because butt and tip are very stiff, but thinner wall steel does allow flex in the middle, just like a Nunchuk. I wouldnt be able to flex a heavy wall steel X flex shaft tipped an inch.

BTW Nunchuk are counterbalanced so we feel more weight in our hands, rather than the clubhead. If our brain senses more weight in our hands,rather than clubhead, as I understand Gerry Hogan's reasoning, our bodies will swing the handle/whole club,

If I were you I would experiment with an old iron and try some variations. If you only try X flex, 125-130 grams, 38 inch, 5 iron, would bet you wont go X flex and that would be a shame.

Yes, that all makes sense, mate. I'll play around with a spare Apex 6 iron I have for these kind of experiments.

I have been trying to incorporate a gravity drop and shallow out my swing on the way down. Easier said than done for a golfer like myself.

have always like John McEnroe as a thinker.
I really like this video of him talking about Agassi...
he mentions the equipment...the leg/footwork...the core strength and turn......the short hand travel to generate pace and eliminate timing issues.... lots of good stuff that can be thought of with regards to golf also

[quote="Bradley Hughes" post=30444]Here is a great pic of Peter Thomson pressuring down....and shallowing the shaft behind him....not forcing it or pulling it down sharply....... this is a common trait of every great ball striker.......



Thanks Bradley for all the pics and info that you have provided this forum. You have given me a lot of eye-opening moments regarding the golf swing. You're right, this Peter Thomson pic is just great. The "old" pros really knew how to handle their business.

Great Pic Brad.
He was a great champion. Not just a great swing but I don't think anyone was a better strategist. I remember him talking about how he always played a hole backwards from the green and made a game plan for each hole and stuck with it (much like Hogan).
Something we amateurs should do more, instead of trying to bomb and gouge like the pros.
It's all about control

In the Hogan thread Tapio just touched on the idea of hitting with the shaft...and not the clubhead....this is exactly true and something I have talked about in just about every one of my posts
The best ball strikers ALL shallowed the shaft out to the point where it pointed outside the ball and not at the ball as people who talk about 'plane' insist on doing.



This allowed them to pressure the shaft from 'off plane'.....onto a similar impact/address alignment of the shaft and then keep pressuring the shaft and holding it on plane on the way through void of turning the head around with independent hand action





The continued pressuring of the shaft then gets these guys into the high finish point and not into a folded finish where acceleration has slowed and the hands have overplayed their role and folded to this same point with the shaft heading horizontal/parallel and not vertically extended





I did a video last year about this.....which will help Azmat understand what we need to do once the 'gravity drop' occurs that gets us into the slot

S.M.D.M.T.T.



S.M.D.M.T.T.

I like it Phily.

Kinda reminded me of TC Chen the way Ted Williams' bat can strike the ball twice.

Maybe TW stands for Two Whacks

close ... it stands for Shaolin Monk Darth Maul Ted Technique.

(pretty obvious really).

This is a brilliant image to show how the flatter or around you can swing the less deviation you can have in your shot patterns
It allows the club to be shallow....it sets up body range of motion to turn all parts thru simultaneously... so the hand path doesn't alter much..... the head returns to impact closely situated to where it was at address..... the butt of the club turns with the body from closed torso position to open torso position....etc etc
You can see Williams trail arm stays bent until well after impact....his shoulders and torso tunr level and he grips with his rear foot for balance and even gets some toe drag as i show in my videos which again is a result of downward foot pressure working against the level aggressive torso turn.

He really couldn't hit this ball off line unless..... because the ball is moving...he hit it too early or too late
In golf the ball isn't moving so we are eradicated of that problem.

This becomes very evident if you were to drop to your knees and hit golf balls with a driver teed up.
You HAVE to swing in this around & around manner otherwise the club hits the ground behind the ball
Come in steep..... you will hit the ground behind the ball and will have to throw your clubhead to alter that occurrence and then the club more often than not bounces over the teed up ball.
I know we don't hit balls off our knees but it gives a huge insight into what does happen if we get into the trap of worrying about target lines and being on plane as we have been told to do.

The big thing you will notice if you do try hit balls from your knees is this:

If you do come over the top... the ball does not really start that far left and it does not really slice....all that happens is the trajectory stays lower
If you happen to leave the face open.....the ball doesn't start that far right and does not really slice.... all that happens is the trajectory goes higher

It is a massive eye opener as to why flatter clubs can help reduce our dispersion rate of the golf ball... as the general trajectory gets altered much more than the general start direction and curvature.....

Sam Snead quotes from his book....... “The Game I Love”, with Fran Pirozzolo, 1997:

Page 58,

“… Henry Picard's generosity in selling me a driver put me on the right track. He sold it to me for $5.50, which is what he paid for it. I was able to control my shots with this driver. It was heavy, with a very stiff shaft. The story going around that I used it for twenty-three years, that I never let another man hit it, and that I slept with it was true – except for the last part!”

Page 61,

“…You’ve got to know where that club head is and what’s happening to the club face. … I don’t agree with the current trend toward lighter club heads, because they take away the feel of where the club face is. I think a heavy-feeling club head is better. My first driver was an E-5 swing weight, and I used if for most of my career. I needed to know where the club face was.”