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TOPIC: Is Ben Hogan the ideal?

Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18868

Thats because Hogan still had a lot of residue left over from learning to the roll the ankles and keeping the chin pointed to the right which he learned from Picard, lets not forget who taught Picard, Alex Morrison...that was very much in vouge back then...below is an article written by Alex Morrison that explains the mistaken notion of "staying back" to strike the golf ball.

www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/Ame...lfer/1932/ag359l.pdf
Last Edit: 2 years 6 months ago by Kevin Michaels Golf.
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18869

  • Festus
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I like this discussion. I also believe the active pivot Hogan used after impact was the reason for the no roll-over. I don't believe the wrist action conditions after impact is something to consciously eliminate as might be suggested. I believe it is something that is eliminated by the process itself- the pivot- and not a conscious process to eliminate the condition.

Some other discussion on this topic from others about weak v. strong grips. Probably not the most ideal terms to us in my opinion. Since it appears to me that Hogan was pushing and pulling through impact at the same time, it would make sense that the two hands would need to be oriented a little different. I like to think of the hands as either a little under, or a little on top of things. I like to think of Hogan's grip as a "locked grip", ready to do two things at once in attacking through the ball. :)
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18870

Believe it or not some golfers have engrained the up and down action of the wrists soo much that even if you show them how to pivot properly they will still put that wristy leverage into their swing, but the rolling over action will tend to be minimized as the pivot takes over the follow through actions thats for sure.
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18871

  • powerfade66
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Bradley Hughes wrote:


What is very interesting is footage from the Shell Match where his practice swing was a roll and yet his real swing was more of a pivot turn bringing the club around the body and then vertical up once it had nowhere else to go and the pivot turn was spent


hoganpracticereal.JPG



It's a coincidence that you post the difference between his practice swing and real swing Brad because I've recently been looking at just how fully he seems to have released into his exit on a lot of swings. That shot on Shell's was a cut up wedge off a downslope from memory but it may have been similar to that for others. The fuller release I often see puzzles me with his stock shot supposedly being a fade and so identified it the other day as a flaw I had vis a vis his swing but perhaps not.
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Last Edit: 2 years 6 months ago by powerfade66.
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18875

The rehearsal swing is classic "holding the chin back" action as you can see compared to the genuine article, also note where the right thigh is pointing so he really cut off his pivot as well, could have been a overclubed low shot, looks like it.

Incidently a few years back Bobby Shave showed me a pivot drill that he said Wild Bill Mehlhorn had showed him and that wasnt in the GSE book they co wrote. You simply take a normal stance with the club at address and pivot clockwise and counterclockwise while leaving the club on the ground, with no independent arm movement, thats the best pivot drill I know of. I call it the "haf moon" pivot drill.
Last Edit: 2 years 6 months ago by Kevin Michaels Golf.
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18877

Making comparisons of great golfers like Hogan and saying who is the best is a waste of time.

It is good entertainment at best.
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18880

Connor T. Lewis wrote:
1lovegolf24 wrote:
This is true if you have a neutral to strong grip, but if you grip the club like Hogan your wrist will be flat or even bowed the opposite direction. Try it yourself. Take a grip like Dariusz's profile pic and take a backswing.

The most important factor is the plane heigth, not the grip alone. While it is true what you said as regards grip as a factor, it shades away if the plane is low and one wants to use the momentum of the club. The rule of thumb is - the higher the arms/hands are approaching top the less are chances for unintentional dorsi flexion of the lead wrist. Simply, one cannot "load" the club with a low plane backswing when trying to have a flat or bowed lead wrist.

BTW, great posts, Bradley and Martin. Spot on.

Cheers
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18881

This will be my ast post on this site this year, better not to use the wrists at all...thanks. KM

Enjoy the search...KM
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18882

That's funny, Hogan is known as the "best ballstriker that ever played" and Hagen is known as one of the "worst" !!!!!
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18911

  • Marc Lachance
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Connor, I suggest that the little fade you had with copping the left wrist, is probably the best way to play because you illiminate one side of the course... Even better you illiminate the most dangerous side, the hooking side. A hook goes for ever on a dry and fast course.

So, having it going gently from left to right isn't bad at all. And for the question of the bowed lrft wrist at impact, I think that this position happens naturally with the momentum of the swing.

Marc Lachance
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 6 months ago #18915

Mark, your observation that the right hand rolls over only when it crosses the sagittal plane and Hogan's did not is one of those "see the forest instead of just the trees" ideas that just blew my mind. Thanks Big Fella.
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 5 months ago #20382

  • Marc Lachance
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''It is funny you note that your conception of your swing and your actual swing were two different things. A little more than a year ago I flattened my swing and it felt like I was in a Hoganesque position at the top of my swing. The video said otherwise. ''

Hi Connor,

You remember Mr. Burke in one of the videos, when he says that a golfer has to built his own golf swing, his own interpretation... The copy is close to impossible, so we take some here and some there... I took a lot from Mr. Hogan and lately I tried to integrate Elk's concept of the pivot with some success. The smash is pretty good thank you. But obviously, my swing doesn't look like Mr. Elkington or Mr. Hogan, that's it... On the other end, I am more aware of what's going on in my own swing and I think that all and all I hit better shots.

All that being said, I am a 0 to 2 handicap, playing with hopes and feers that Moe Norman was talking about ... I'm still not certain on what makes the difference, is it in the attitude, is it raw talent, I don't know. But I love this game, you can play almost a lifetime and always search for that little improvement that can make a difference !

One coment on the side, sorry for the poor english writing, my native language is French.

Marc
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Re: Is Ben Hogan the ideal? 2 years 5 months ago #20416

How right you are when you say "The copy is close to impossible, so we take some here and some there". After reading many articles and looking at different videos about how to swing a golf club I have concluded it is a personal thing. I even feel the grip is personal.

Many things like our athletic ability, physical makeup etc come into play. AND, playing better golf may no always be in the physical aspect of swinging the club but good course management. This reality came into play when I found out at 74 years old I could not hit my clubs as long as I used to.
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