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TOPIC: A Different Concept"How I applied DOCF"

A Different Concept"How I applied DOCF" 1 year 11 months ago #37804

  • Diz
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Some knowledge that was passed on to me by Martin Ayers that helped shape my swing over the last 3yrs...

Martin would say "moving without moving----because there is no reason to add anything but the clubs motion. Anything you ADD to the club that isn't directly INTO where the swing IS at a given point in time will detract both power and control."

Quote from 5 lessons...
This is, in truth, what each element does as it joins in the downswing: IT ADDS ITS CONTRIBUTION TO THE MULTIPLYING SPEED GENERATED BY THIS COHESIVE MOVEMENT OF THE BODY, LEGS AND ARMS TOWARD THE TARGET. THIS SPEED MULTIPLIES THE GOLFER'S POWER 10 TIMES OVER. IN THE CHAIN ACTION OF THE SWING, THE SHOULDERS AND UPPER PART OF THE BODY CONDUCT THIS MULTIPLYING POWER INTO THE ARMS....THE ARMS MULTIPLY IT AGAIN AND PASS IT ON TO THE HANDS....THE HANDS MULTIPLY IT IN TURN...AND, AS A RESULT, THE CLUBHEAD IS SIMPLY TEARING THROUGH THE AIR AT AN INCREDIBLE SPEED AS IT DRIVES THROUGH THE BALL. ALL THIS HAPPENS SO QUICKLY, OF COURSE, THAT YOU CAN'T SEE IT TO APPRECIATE IT. BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS.
The surest way to wreck this remarkable machinery is to start the downswing with the hands instead of with the hips."

Martin would say "Any side to side movement or deliberate rolling action in the direction of the swing will not conduct this chain action into the next segment...any stopping of one segment will transfer only a fraction of the multiplying power...so don't stop and DON'T move......keep the chain action in motion...One motion the way it was loaded."


Martin would say " Flat throw--which has nothing to do with flat or upright...but everything to do with balance and being located to the ball correctly for the direction you are swinging. The flat throw has both arms going through the ball at the same rate and that can only be achieved through balanced motion in one spot, again don't move and don't stop".
Last Edit: 1 year 4 months ago by Diz.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37826

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I invite all of martins students to participate in this thread and share how they apply docf to their game .... Hopefully we can get some good discussions going about his concepts and help some people out along the way..
I welcome Martin too ...

Diz
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37827

  • Jim Pruitt
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Diz I will post when I get back from dove hunting this weekend...needed to get away from the city for a couple of days :-) too hard to type much on the phone

For now I will just say I'm thrilled with progress so far and knowing better is coming!
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37828

  • Jim Pruitt
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...I'm sittin out by a fire with some buddies, got my lab with me...lots of bs flyin around...makes me wonder why I live in the city...I may not come home :-)
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37835

  • Drew Art
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Jim, are you a righty shot or lefty?
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37843

  • Chris Peterich
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Hey guys

Hello,,haven't been on here in a while.. You want video, I'm going to play next week and take camera..

I'm almost there with this move
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37855

  • Brad
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Sounds like heaven on earth Jim. Hope your son is with you.

Jim Pruitt wrote:
...I'm sittin out by a fire with some buddies, got my lab with me...lots of bs flyin around...makes me wonder why I live in the city...I may not come home :-)
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37864

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I will share a post from another thread that I thought was well stated and is why I can move a 7 iron 200 yards with effortless power ...



Even though the left foot is flared out, all of the Left leg pressures are CW or Diametrically Opposed to the Right Leg which is pressuring CCW. So if your screwed into the ground, you are contained, much like you forearms contain of the club. So what does all this containment do? IMO it allows us to use it all, from are toes to are fingers in a chain reaction to leverage the golf ball. The DNA, Double Helix, JH, Transverse Diagonal Screw Factors, that loads are Centerline. So if we gather all of the energy in we can send all the amplified energy to the ball ....



Diz
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37868

  • Martin Ayers
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Diz wrote:
I will share a post from another thread that I thought was well stated and is why I can move a 7 iron 200 yards with effortless power ...



Even though the left foot is flared out, all of the Left leg pressures are CW or Diametrically Opposed to the Right Leg which is pressuring CCW. So if your screwed into the ground, you are contained, much like you forearms contain of the club. So what does all this containment do? IMO it allows us to use it all, from are toes to are fingers in a chain reaction to leverage the golf ball. The DNA, Double Helix, JH, Transverse Diagonal Screw Factors, that loads are Centerline. So if we gather all of the energy in we can send all the amplified energy to the ball ....



Diz

In other words....
If you start in a good structure and only ever work toward yourself, work in and not ever roll or push out....you can use the full club and allow it to swing freely without needing to add measures of control through the ball or after the strike.

To get an idea of what it means to work toward yourself....stand on one leg and imagine you are on a balance beam 100 feet off the ground....you would never go outside yourself and move. this sounds restrictive and some would argue that you aren't on a balance beam in Golf and you are standing on two legs. I would counter that you can complete a full and powerful Driver swing without ever moving away from your center and merely working to your center. Working toward yourself is the most efficient way to deal with forces and mass.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37876

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So if we gather all of the energy in we can send all the amplified energy to the ball ....

In other words.... If you start in a good structure and only ever work toward yourself, work in

These two sentences puts your inward move of the hands harnessing potential energy Martin in good standing...like we're scooping energy inward toward us.....I like it. :)
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Festus.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37877

  • Martin Ayers
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Glad you like it Festus. :)
It sure beats throwing it away then trying to rein it back in to the ball. If you work in from the start you can let the club stay out all the way...never needing to bring it in. That is WHERE it truly is in relation to us all the way anyway.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37895

  • steven grace
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diz and or martin.....so the left leg pressures CW while the right leg pressures CCW...?? .this confuses me as i thought BOTH intentions were to be directed targetward....also should the forearms mirror the legs ..i.e. left forearm pressures CW and right forearm CCW?? cause in your Harmon vid you mention containing the grip by the left hand turning CCW and the right forearm turning CW?? really enjoy these insights and martin sorry i could not meet w you in so cal this time due to schedule conflict.......thanks for all the help on the dirt though!!
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37897

  • john sundeen
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Good questions Steven....................looking forward to Martin's response
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37904

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@Steven ...martin can do a better job answering your question.. All I do with the lower body is try keep my left knee inside my foot which helps govern to much foward for me while I internally rotate my right leg inbehind my left leg..


I built my swing around a nice comfortable armset that allows my wrist to twirl open CW in one direction while countering in the opposing direction by pulling the last three fingers of the left hand under the right arm(which feels like a trapped armset )... I try to never give this up the wholetime while I use the body to be a support stablizer for my upper center to find the ground into the right spot... I believe the interia from the swing squares the face .... The goal of behind the right arm provides the least amount of disturbance side to side on the club so it swings with more momentum in a narrow plane of movement ... When you have this strong postion from under the right arm to play from you have alot to hit with , then it just becomes how much you roll the face back against it...you should never have to add or accelerate at the bottom in the direction of the target by doing this ....


Diz
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Diz.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37906

  • Chris Peterich
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Good stuff Diz..simple and to the point... Golf just needs to be simple imo
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37907

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Chris Peterich wrote:
Good stuff Diz..simple and to the point... Golf just needs to be simple imo

Your right Chris how easy is it to never give up a feel you start at address with and let that be your swing... :cheer:


Diz
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Diz.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37909

  • steven grace
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tnx diz for the insights....can't wait to try those feels you mention today on the range!!
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37911

  • Chris Peterich
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You cant lead or force horse to naturally drink water if thirsty..but you have to provide the necessities to make this happen.. .you don't train him..all you do is provide him the water. Preset body and hand set (water you provide horse). And free swing club and let it happen and go where it wishes to go (horse drinking water you provided)..


Easy as horse drinking water....just hate cleaning up their crap.. I haven't come up with an analogy for that yet. Let me contemplate.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37913

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Hopefully this thread will uncover whats already GIVEN in the swing and help those that get carried away with postioning and forcing things to their determinant ... ;)

be back later, have to mow:(


Diz
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Diz.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37915

  • Martin Ayers
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Diz wrote:
@Steven ...martin can do a better job answering your question.. All I do with the lower body is try keep my left knee inside my foot which helps govern to much foward for me while I internally rotate my right leg inbehind my left leg..


I built my swing around a nice comfortable armset that allows my wrist to twirl open CW in one direction while countering in the opposing direction by pulling the last three fingers of the left hand under the right arm(which feels like a trapped armset )... I try to never give this up the wholetime while I use the body to be a support stablizer for my upper center to find the ground into the right spot... I believe the interia from the swing squares the face .... The goal of behind the right arm provides the least amount of disturbance side to side on the club so it swings with more momentum in a narrow plane of movement ... When you have this strong postion from under the right arm to play from you have alot to hit with , then it just becomes how much you roll the face back against it...you should never have to add or accelerate at the bottom in the direction of the target by doing this ....


Diz

Diz...have to say that your improved application of the principles appears to be raising your IQ by 50% as well....not only can you demonstrate it on a ball now but you can articulate it very well also.....that was not always the case. Nice.
Easy as horse drinking water....just hate cleaning up their crap.. I haven't come up with an analogy for that yet. Let me contemplate.
Try keeping the shovel 22* to your right as you scoop....that's the secret to horse poop.

diz and or martin.....so the left leg pressures CW while the right leg pressures CCW...?? .this confuses me as i thought BOTH intentions were to be directed targetward....also should the forearms mirror the legs ..i.e. left forearm pressures CW and right forearm CCW?? cause in your Harmon vid you mention containing the grip by the left hand turning CCW and the right forearm turning CW?? really enjoy these insights and martin sorry i could not meet w you in so cal this time due to schedule conflict.......thanks for all the help on the dirt though!!

Steven....sorry we missed each other last week...next time. Back in the land of Oz now.
Let me clarify these things in point form....

***The torso should be pre-set ahead of the ball in rotation for any shot you want to hit down on. The degree to which it's pre-set in front should increase slightly for chips and pitches where you don't have a lot of energy being built up.

***The legs should both be wound internally rotated in the hip joint so that........
The Femur bones are inside and more underneath the pelvis, and thus inside the outer edge of the pelvis. The degree to which the hips are then inside the feet gives you a governor on your lower body action. Think Hogan Driver stance where he has his right knee a long way inside his right ankle joint...and then contrast that with George Knudsen who had his left ankle OUTSIDE his left shoulder. That's why George had more lateral movement forward through the strike than Hogan....whose lateral move was done in the late backswing and transition. All these things should be built to work...not BE work.

***I wont talk CW or CCW....it's too confusing and only leads to communication issues in my experience... So starting with the forearms mirroring the thighs..
watch this after you do the above internal rotations of the hip joints...


Note that at 0.34 my left leg is not matching my left forearm....I have addressed that issue in my own game and my teaching since I shot that video. One of the amazing things about Jackie Burke is that he gave me maybe 6 or 7 "lessons" all lasting about 30 seconds and everything he told me in that time was very profound. He takes 10 words to say what takes me 5 paragraphs. :) I realise the difference is that he teaches in a way that the learning can begin the moment he walks away....I tend to stay long enough to KNOW my lesson has sunk in. :)

*** Let's talk containing the side to side of the club. I will go back and review the Harmon club footage to check but almost certain I did not say it in the way you described Steven.....
This is how to do it 'my' way...bear in mind every great player has this containment in some way to one degree or another and there is a multitude of ways you can 'trap' the club.....e.g. Tommy Gainey and David Duval have it trapped pretty well but in a totally different way.

With BOTH hands wind the tube of the shaft to open the face....this will send the shaft pointing off to the right (just for consistency do all of this with the shaft starting horizontal to the ground in front of your belly)..leaving that pressure in there align the last three fingers of the left hand toward your right forearm until the shaft returns to in front of your belly horizontal...then lastly without giving up that wound open pushed back pressure drop the shaft DOWN on the angle it would be at address as opposed to the horizontal. That will trap it in a third way.

NEVER GIVE THAT PRESSURE UP UNTIL THE BALL IS ON IT"S WAY....relax it at the finish.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37932

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I like what you said about not feeling connected at address because if you force connection in some way it would be hard to have the freedom to work towards yourself and get the kind of containment you talk about..... being connected at address will force you to get out and around..So getting a nice comfortable armset to play from helps.. nice!

Diz
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Diz.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37934

  • Jim Pruitt
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Diz....great idea on the thread! Looking forward to sharing where Martin and DOCF are taking me....I have a lot I want to say but I can't put it all in one post....immediately I have a greater appreciation for those that can put their “feelings” and explanations in typed word...this is hard and I don’t want to cause any confusion…I just try to do what Martin shows and tells me to do…

In a broad sense here are a few things I’m learning how to do…

(I came to Martin with an “over-rotated arm-runoff” move…)

1) I’m not trying to put the club in certain magical “positions” throughout the swing anymore. Halleluiah!
2) I’m trying to not go in the direction the club is swinging anymore…I believe one of the first things Martin told me was I was too much back, back, back, forward, forward, forward…instead of forward forward, forward, back, back, back…

I put this video in the “thanks Martin” thread the other day. It’s my latest, got excited near the end visualizing and trying to hit some different shots….

I have never been as excited about trying to get better and work on my game because for the first time in my golf life I know where I’m going and I know what I have now is still going to get tighter and better!

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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37935

  • Jim Pruitt
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@ Drew...Lefty :)

@ Brad, unfortunately I didn't have my son with me but hopefully we can make it happen another time!
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Jim Pruitt.
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37936

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1) I’m not trying to put the club in certain magical “positions” throughout the swing anymore. Halleluiah!

Amen to that brother!


You're swing is very impressive and has changed alot in such a shortime..

Diz
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Re: "How I have applied DOCF concepts to my game" 1 year 11 months ago #37953

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The reason you dont hear us talking about forearm rotation or dropping the hands down in the swing is that will create a side to side mess that forces you to add in the direction of the swing ...We want have a trapped armset that works in opposite direction of the swing so we get full containment . The more we aim the arms behind us the more we have to put on the ball...


Diz
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