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I'm kinda liking John Senden's swing. Is he a good ball striker? Is it a good one to emulate?

grooving a swing in a long term process. studying many swings is a great idea. you should also ask yourself what it is about any good players swing that instinctively gets your attention.

I was watching the BMW tourney last year. Senden got up there and hit driver and I was like, "That looked like nothing." It was just effortless. It was the longest drive of the day on that hole.

I don't know nothing but Senden looks like Hogan Five Lessons to me.

I don't know nothing but Senden looks like Hogan Five Lessons to me.

Kenan

Wrong Hogan, book.

Pictures of a twenty year younger Senden is in Gerry Hogans book written in 1992:

The Hogan Manual of Human Performance GOLF.

I agree, GREAT SWING.

I'm gonna have to get a copy of that Gerry Hogan book. Anybody willing to send me a copy? I hear they're like $65 a pop due to some kind of abuse from the publisher or something crazy. I dunno. I guess I could google this issue to find information but it's more fun to get help from actual people.

kenan,

While waiting to find Gerrys book, you might take in what Lane posted in another thread,
along side the Senden video. IMO Lane covered about three chapters of Gerrys;book in this entry:

I think its letting the wrists be free hinges with no release
is what makes Sendens swing appear as one continuous flowing motion....effortless


Lane wrote:

The golf swing is against all genetics. Your mind has to teach and direct your body( specifically the hands ) to perform a task that is totally against it's nature.

You see-- your hands are trying to square the clubface and that is not their responsibility. ( I know- that is against all the standard instruction ) . It is the turning of the torso that does that task. The hands are the primary movers and they control the only thing you have control over-- the butt / handle/ grip end of the shaft.

However, they are not capable of hitting. They are the destroyers of the swing also and in you case they have managed to throw the clubhead at the ball immediately at the start of your downswing--robbing your swing of power and forcing your body and upper torso to straighten up because you are compromising your balance mechanisms ( those genetics thingies ) that will not let you fall over no matter how hard you try.
Sweep the butt of the club behind you to about 8 :00 o'clock and pull the *** BUTT ** of the hands down and around you toward 1:00 o'clockkeeping the palm of the right hand looking upward. Forget the clubhead. Control the butt of the club. The wrist are only free swinging hinges on the ends of your arms. They DO NOT hit .

Therer should be no intent to release. Trust me - the clubhead WILL catch up. Keep pulling and turning with the torso until you can't pull and turn anymore all the while keeping the back of the left hand and the palm of the right hand looking skyward.

You video clearly shows your torso never fully turns. An indication you are throwing and hitting with your hands. You got the tail wagging the dog. You are throwing the toe over the heel of the clubhead at impact-
ANNNND --- left it will go !!

darryl tateishi wrote:


Looks like Mr. Lane has a lot of misunderstanding about the hands role in the swing. Here is three quotes from three great players and teachers of golf about hands:

Ernest Jonse: "Swig the clubhead with your hands, let the body follow."
Henry Cotton: "Golf is 85% hands."
Ben Hogan:"I wish I had three right hands."

Looks like Mr. Lane has a lot of misunderstanding about the hands role in the swing. Here is three quotes from three great players and teachers of golf about hands:

Ernest Jonse: "Swig the clubhead with your hands, let the body follow."
Henry Cotton: "Golf is 85% hands."
Ben Hogan:"I wish I had three right hands."

Cy,

Lane will correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Lane played competitive golf for many years, but always with 'fear' of going left.

When he began corresponding with Gerry Hogan at about age of 60, Lane learned the role of the hands, as per Gerry Hogans research over 40 years.

At age 72, understand Lane is +1 at a challenging golf course in Ga.

Lane I am sure will speak for himself.


The three quotes cited are from best of the best, and often repeated.

Gerry Hogan and Lane also state importance of the hands.

For sure there is a misunderstanding about the role of the hands.










.

Be careful on this quote from Ben Hogan, which I also recently heard cited from Brandel Chamblee ("I wished I had three right hands"). There's also this: "On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand. But this is only half the story. Hit the ball as hard as you can with both hands." And then, later in his book Five Lessons, there is this regarding the person who sensibly implements the swing Hogan instructs: "He will not have to worry constantly about his timing, for example, as does the player who thinks he can construct a swing on hand action and who, since this is impossible, is doomed to be erratic."

Tim Price wrote:


continued from page 99 - 'Hit the ball as hard as you can with both hands ...'

... "The left is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you also will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. You must hit as hard with the left as with the right"

Tim,

I always hear this too, Hogan - 'I wished I had three right hands'. I'm a bit fuzzy on the context and would like to hear more.

I know on days when my swing is on 'automatic' that the way the right hand releases feels unusually powerful almost like it has a mind of it's own.

darryl tateishi wrote:


Darryl, the swing misunderstanding and confusion is not only about the role of the hands but amazingly every part of the body! You name any part of the body, arms, wrists or hands, I will find a swing guru who claims that part is the master key or the secret to the swing. Or even no body part, "golf is 100% mental"!

It seems to me that for a simple swing, there are more conflicting gurus, theories, and interpretations than most religions. Or perhaps golf IS a religion, the most beautiful one.

I think this is a good view of Senden's hand action. Been trying to emulate and am hitting my irons more flush.

youtu.be/It3l8q6jytY

the swing misunderstanding and confusion is not only about the role of the hands but amazingly every part of the body! You name any part of the body, arms, wrists or hands, I will find a swing guru who claims that part is the master key or the secret to the swing. Or even no body part, "golf is 100% mental"!

It seems to me that for a simple swing, there are more conflicting gurus, theories, and interpretations than most religions. Or perhaps golf IS a religion, the most beautiful one.


Cy,



I like Gerry's words about the reptilian brain and how we are inclined to habit, ritual, checklists . If one checklist doesnt work we go to another and another and on and on

Gerry Hogan as a former cop, demanded of HIMSELF evidence and scientific justification for anything he sought to prove or disprove. He said himself that many of his ideas about the golf swing he thought to be true, upon careful investigation by himself he found to be false.

I believed this to be his character so I gave his ideas about shafts, clubs and the swing a try. To date it has been very very positive for me.


You pointed out I think correctly that many great golfers/teachers emphasize the hands, as being key to golf. If Gerry is correct about the proper use of the hands, then what Ken Venturi said, in the interview with McLean, 'prearrange chain action' should be easily accomplished.

The topic is , Opinions please. These are just mine.

wonder if by the time the hands release the kinetic chain has already moved down the shaft and the feel of release is really the hands just getting out to the way ? (other than containing the pulling force of the club)


ted williams (reversed)

Lane wrote:

Sweep the butt of the club behind you to about 8 :00 o'clock and pull the *** BUTT ** of the hands down and around you toward 1:00 o'clock keeping the palm of the right hand looking upward. Forget the clubhead. Control the butt of the club. The wrist are only free swinging hinges on the ends of your arms. They DO NOT hit

Something like this?:

Mathew and Phily,

Appears to me that Ted Williams and Ben Hogan, turn and pull.

When hips reach limit of turn, they both do the 'scissor kick', like Gary Player out of the rough.


Thanks for the video.


.

phily wrote:



Phily,

My personal feelings aside, and this is just my opinion, you sure have a talent for capturing the essense of the swing motion.

Thank you.

Mark, 1lovegolf24

Nice video Phily...

Good example of putting the word "linear" and "golf" into separate bedrooms.

1lovegolf24 wrote:

Thank you Mark, my eye has been educated here in the Dirt.

You share a common trait with Mickelson, Ted, & Mantle I believe,
so here's the correct perspective.

phily wrote:


Phily, how was Ted Williams golf game?

Cy,

didn't know Williams played, but apparently Mantle was a golfer.

(skip to 1:55 in video)

Yall do realize that these baseball swings are not being taught anymore,that nowadays they are basically teaching a roatational baseball swing in the major leagues,notice how Ted williams hands cross over,thats more of a hands arm generated swing,they now dont want that to happen,thats why nowadays you see so many let go with the trail arm in the follow through,because they want the hips and torso powering the swing from the ground up,the trail hand just pushes at the moment of truth,If you went and took a batting lesson from top baseball hitting instructors,as a golfer you would recognize alot of the concepts that Mr Hogan spoke of and the rotational golf instructors talk about

alan wrote:

Oh it's all there.

This looks like some filmed practice session though, where Williams is being lobbed a high pitch so he can tap some out to the right fielder.

I posted it more for the idea/question that while arm and hand position is critical for delivery path, the energy transferred from the power off the back and shoulders can only be 'released' through the hands and that it may be an feel illusion that they are doing anything more than being a controlled pivot point. (a concept probably obvious to everyone here but still interesting to me).

On the 'The Y Shape Method' thread there's a Phil Hurrie video (Through the ball 2) where he demonstrates the motion intent of keeping the shaft 'level' to the ground (moving around your body). His reasoning is that the club head will drop on it's own. While I don't advocate or discourage using Hurrie's methods, I do know this feeling when I am hitting well, the club drops of it's own accord and I'm left thinking how powerful my right hand release felt.

Tom,

I am not sure how many years John led the tour in GIR's , but it was quite a few. I imagine he is still around the top. John, as a young man, is the illustrator in Gerry's Book- The Hogan Manual of Human Performance.


Lane

I think this is a good view of Senden's hand action. Been trying to emulate and am hitting my irons more flush.

youtu.be/It3l8q6jytY

Tom,

Its been a few days, still hitting them flush?

Fighting going left?

If Lane is correct and our wrists are , free wheeling hinges separating our arms ( primary lever) and club( secondary lever,which includes our hands), then repeating the swing should be as easy as slamming a door, as long as there arent any screws loose. ...................in the hinges(.take out the slack)

Now if we could just find the trip wire, I think it would all come together..