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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=31&Itemid=3"]Biokinetic Golf Swing Theory[/url] Group Forum: The Biokinetic Golf Swing Theory is based on searching for the automatic golf swing motion in the macroscale where all depends on a human body limitations rather than possibilities. The crucial thing is the ability of benefitting from the so-called theory of natural limitations - in order to make a movement automatic there must not be any free capability left in a specific motion, otherwise timing issues come along.

Less timing issues = less small thoughts and concepts = more coordinated motion = more repeatability and consistency = automation of the golf swing motion

TOPIC: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances

Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32694

  • phily
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Phily wrote:
Darisuez,
Earlier you mentioned that you were using 'foam training balls' (backyard) ...
Kids being so adaptive to the task at hand that I wondered if there isn't a characteristic of those foam balls that your son is aware of that in order to get them to clear the roof he isn't slightly / possibly modifying something?
meaning to help everyone advance their excellent observations so far I'm thinking it would be more revealing to see him hit a real rock at a range (?)


Dariusz wrote:
First, this is the most weirdo name change I was given...ROFL...

Dariusz,
:lol: You've got me busting a gut over here ... sorry about the spelling, that was pretty bad - my only excuse is I'm taking pain killers for a tendon issue - should call them 'brain killers'.
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by phily.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32695

  • John Hue
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Dariusz , I think the 2X4 drill may be a good place to start. Where you place a piece of 2X4 about a foot and a half long where the ball is and get him into impact with a forward leaning shaft and getting him to squeeze it forward . That was a drill I was shown by some TGM guys to tidy up the follow through. I think a light bulb might go off in his head. Follow throughs are one of the easier parts of the swings to fix and everything else looks good.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32696

  • Tapio Santala
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Dariusz Jedrzejewski wrote:
Tapio Santala wrote:
One thing came to my mind after reading your reply...

Many players feel they should go to the left and down to hit the ball down. Been there, done that ;)

In reality all good players I have measured got their hands raising quite much before impact and only the club head is going down. One more paradox similar to the hand path left and club head still going right.

There could be one key to get him moving away from the target at impact instead of moving left. Like you said, Hogan moved left but I think it was only to be able to move right after that. It's like jumping, you have to go down to get up.

Yep. Not a word more not a word less. Glad that you chimed in with some conclusions from your measurements, Tapio. Who knows, perhaps it is MY FAULT. As I said earlier, when he was 10-12, when his colleagues were jumping up with their ugly swings, Adrian was complemented by everyone how great his swing is. I should have leave it with his kid ugly jumper swing. Maybe his swing today would be looking not so good (until impact) but more efficient. C'est la vie, friends.

Cheers

Never blame no one, not you or someone else. It's a great swing that needs only bit more progress and small changes in mind and he will be great. he got time, but he needs to figure out how to create those forces and fit them to those other great movements. Just keep on going.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32697

Dariusz,
You've got me busting a gut over here ... sorry about the spelling, that was pretty bad - my only excuse is I'm taking pain killers for a tendon issue - should call them 'brain killers'.

ROFL...all in good spirit, my friend. I am accustomed to this -- too bad that Polish version of Eastern fornames are with these letters "z" at the end that makes people do weird things....while the rest is the same (almost) -- Darius in English = Dariusz; Thomas = Tomasz; Marius = Mariusz, etc.

BTW, Phillip would be Filip ;)


Dariusz , I think the 2X4 drill may be a good place to start. Where you place a piece of 2X4 about a foot and a half long where the ball is and get him into impact with a forward leaning shaft and getting him to squeeze it forward . That was a drill I was shown by some TGM guys to tidy up the follow through. I think a light bulb might go off in his head. Follow throughs are one of the easier parts of the swings to fix and everything else looks good.

Well, the problem is that the last thing I want to do is to implement a conscious handle dragging a'la TGM. According to last researches on ENSO, this is a SS killer, no matter it is a conscious hand action and I do not want him to think about hands/arms at all.
I have in mind some physical training he needs a lot of (long, weak arms; weak wrists). Old classic guys got this when polishing equipment from rust when they were kids and caddies. Today's kids are pampered mostly -- not knowing physical work, only books and notebook keyboards. Sad but true.


Never blame no one, not you or someone else. It's a great swing that needs only bit more progress and small changes in mind and he will be great. he got time, but he needs to figure out how to create those forces and fit them to those other great movements. Just keep on going.

We will try !

Cheers
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32698

  • John Hue
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Dariusz , I never once thought of handle dragging when I was doing the 2X4 drill in fact the never entered my head until you mentioned it. The thought process I had was throw out ,using the pivot to throw out not drag the handle. I don't see that fitting in with the drill at all.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32699

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Dariusz Jedrzejewski wrote:
ROFL...all in good spirit, my friend. I am accustomed to this -- too bad that Polish version of Eastern fornames are with these letters "z" at the end that makes people do weird things....while the rest is the same (almost) -- Darius in English = Dariusz; Thomas = Tomasz; Marius = Mariusz, etc. BTW, Phillip would be Filip ;)
(You're not far off. I'm out here in L.A. and it's come full circle, to save confusion and blank stares when ordering food 'to go', I have to pronounce my name 'Felipe' .)
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32700

Dariusz , I never once thought of handle dragging when I was doing the 2X4 drill in fact the never entered my head until you mentioned it. The thought process I had was throw out ,using the pivot to throw out not drag the handle. I don't see that fitting in with the drill at all.

John, perhaps we are talking about two different things...you mean throwing out arms ? sort of anti-low&left follow through ? with leaving out lead humerus pressure to the body ?
Please enlight me what exactly the drill is about. Maybe I have jus depreciated a good thing.

Cheers
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32701

phily wrote:
(You're not far off. I'm out here in L.A. and it's come full circle, to save confusion and blank stares when ordering food 'to go', I have to pronounce my name 'Felipe' .)

Hola ! Como estas, Felipe ? Castellano muy bueno ;)

I was learning Spanish during my studioes as my third language. Beautiful language. The best I've ever learnt, better than ancient Latin.

Cheers
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32702

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Dariusz . To me the drill gave me an awareness of how to organize my pivot and body to apply a lot of force to and through the ball Not unlike a hammer thrower releasing the hammer.In Martin's video you see Steve throwing out the club away from him,that is what I mean by throw out. Just do the drill and you will intuitively get what I am driving at.I am not thinking I want drill this in or that in , Just as you would instinctively organize your body for leverage if I asked you to push a car this drill does it for you for impact and through. Try it and see and if you don't like it discard it and just add it to another thing you don't like.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32703

  • Tapio Santala
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I just throw my thoughts what I tell to my students if you get something out of it, and here is one more about throwing..

I think the whole club should be throwed about 45 degrees to the left without letting the club head pass the hands. Of course it will at some point, but that should be the intention. By that the body rotation can best support the hand speed and any movement toward the target is something that is not in line with body movements. That should also give an idea to what direction the lower body should work to balance those forces.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32704

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Dariusz Jedrzejewski wrote:
Hola ! Como estas, Felipe ? Castellano muy bueno ;)
I was learning Spanish during my studioes as my third language. Beautiful language. The best I've ever learnt, better than ancient Latin. Cheers
er, uh .... mi perro habla me pide conducir mi coche en sopa de nabo bueno calculadora.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32986

  • Tim Frost
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Hi Dariusz,

At the moment your son is all flexibility and little muscular tension. This is not unnatural for a 15 year old but it means that you can't expect a swing of his length and lag (artificial?) to have the same effect as an adult.

Please excuse any misrepresentation on my behalf but your BGS Theory (which I think shows genius) is based on limitations in the human body. However your sons limitations aren't the same as you or I! The lag he creates lacks power for good reason.......... Quick excercise: start turning the club back into the right side and stop just before you get to the final part of the swing where extreme tensions are created in the right leg, now let the hands flop back into a full wristcock. You'll notice there is great false lag here a bit like what your son creates. I'm sure this is how he feels: loose and wippy. Same thing would be true if I sat on the floor with my legs stretched out in front of me. If you grabbed both my ankles and started splaying them I would soon be in pain and have reached my limitations, and once you let go my legs would spring back. Do the same thing with a young gymnast and release their legs at the same point you released mine and there would by little muscles tension and recoil because their limitations are so much greater.

I also notice that during the transition his hips are turning less that Hogan's when really it should be the other way around because of his greater flexibility........ he should be cranking his hips through the ball, opening the left and powering through the right.

Anyway the kid is only 15. You could be patient and wait for his muscles to fill out and flexibility to naturally reduce so these limitations, tensions, and his power increase (this will probably add 20-30 yards in the next few years). alternatively you could risk a bit of accuracy loss in the short term and push him to the limits of his limitations now so he experiences his maximum at a younger age.......... by that I mean really dropping his right hip way back like a Jamie Sadlowski to the point that his swing gets extreme, and exploding/quickening the hips through impact as he doesn't have a power move here. Sadlowski has both tremendous flexibility and muscular tension, with your son lacking the former. Sadlowski also increased his strength and explosiveness as a teenager by playing ice-hockey (100mph slapshot!) and doing some strength training (not muscle building mind you). You might like to encourage a gentle strength training routine and fun plyometrics for you son.

Just my thoughts! :lol:

(p.s. never thought I would be giving someone like you swing advice but there you go. It feels like Kevin Spacey asking me for acting tips....... strange world)
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Tim Frost.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32991

Hello Tim,

Thanks for a very wise post. The part of flexibility vs. muscular strength in a given age is the same I heard and read in the net. It is a plague for thin and fast-growing kids, like my son certainly is. As I wrote earlier, his physis is after my wife and his mother (there are tall and very tall persons in her family). I am confident you're right as well and do not intent to force anything, nevertheless, I want to know opinions of knowledgeable posters here so that we could just apply something already now.
We have applied practically every bit of advices we received here and we nshall see how it goes. He's going to play a Junior tournament on a very tough course this weekend, so it will be a good test. If everything goes decently, I am going to put new vids with vast explanations that could be of interest for others with similar issues.
As far the theory of limitations goes, you nailed one thing that I just sort of mentioned in the post with Bubba Watson -- namely, if I let him find natural body limitations similar to mine he wouldn't be able to finish his backswing ROFL. This is why he applies something that I do not like, namely, he's not freeing his lead side approaching the top; Putting his rear side more diagonally and letting his rear hip rotate internally approaching top could create a more natural limitation without the danger of a overswinging disaster.

Lastly, please do not exaggerate. I am just a macroscale theorist and know a thing or two merging anatomy to physics but as regards microscale issues I am just an average dad looking for help for his son.

Cheers
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #32998

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Dariusz Jedrzejewski wrote:
Hello Tim,

Thanks for a very wise post. The part of flexibility vs. muscular strength in a given age is the same I heard and read in the net. It is a plague for thin and fast-growing kids, like my son certainly is. As I wrote earlier, his physis is after my wife and his mother (there are tall and very tall persons in her family). I am confident you're right as well and do not intent to force anything, nevertheless, I want to know opinions of knowledgeable posters here so that we could just apply something already now.
We have applied practically every bit of advices we received here and we nshall see how it goes. He's going to play a Junior tournament on a very tough course this weekend, so it will be a good test. If everything goes decently, I am going to put new vids with vast explanations that could be of interest for others with similar issues.
As far the theory of limitations goes, you nailed one thing that I just sort of mentioned in the post with Bubba Watson -- namely, if I let him find natural body limitations similar to mine he wouldn't be able to finish his backswing ROFL. This is why he applies something that I do not like, namely, he's not freeing his lead side approaching the top; Putting his rear side more diagonally and letting his rear hip rotate internally approaching top could create a more natural limitation without the danger of a overswinging disaster.

Lastly, please do not exaggerate. I am just a macroscale theorist and know a thing or two merging anatomy to physics but as regards microscale issues I am just an average dad looking for help for his son.

Cheers

Glad you feel there is some merit to my post........ everyone develops differently and I think most 15 year olds would be very happy with 270 yard drives especially with good accuracy. Its just that if you compare your son to a bell curve example like Dominic Mazza then you start to feel he should be hitting 360 yards!! Somewhat unfair as he's the only 16 year old in the world doing it.

The reason I exaggerate (and I agree it was a bit too much) is that I have really benefited from your analysis since first viewing your videos on youtube and I have taken so much great information from you over the last couple of months....... I find you a very unique Hogan resource! So a big personal thanks from myself and I hope I can offer some useful advice in return.

look forwards to the videos.

(p.s. try seeing if it helps if your son bows from the top and really drives off his right side....... he's got to drive those hips more, for me there is too much club pulling things through which is why things break down a bit at impact................ still an awesome swing though)
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #33000

  • darryl tateishi
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Tim Frost wrote:

... everyone develops differently and I think most 15 year olds would be very happy with 270 yard drives especially with good accuracy. Its just that if you compare your son to a bell curve example like Dominic Mazza then you start to feel he should be hitting 360 yards!! Somewhat unfair as he's the only 16 year old in the world doing it.


A few years ago, when Callaway came out with the Greatest Big Bertha, my friend from SA brought his 17 year old son to join our scramble team. 5’ 7”, 137 pounds, and he drove a 340 hole, elevated green, ending up on the back fringe; hit it 250 off the deck to elevated green, par 5….and he could play too. Amazing to watch.

How did he do it? I agree with Tim, a very few are that gifted.
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #33003

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darryl tateishi wrote:
Tim Frost wrote:

... everyone develops differently and I think most 15 year olds would be very happy with 270 yard drives especially with good accuracy. Its just that if you compare your son to a bell curve example like Dominic Mazza then you start to feel he should be hitting 360 yards!! Somewhat unfair as he's the only 16 year old in the world doing it.


A few years ago, when Callaway came out with the Greatest Big Bertha, my friend from SA brought his 17 year old son to join our scramble team. 5’ 7”, 137 pounds, and he drove a 340 hole, elevated green, ending up on the back fringe; hit it 250 off the deck to elevated green, par 5….and he could play too. Amazing to watch.

How did he do it? I agree with Tim, a very few are that gifted.

Sure. and at the same time being able to gun it a mile at 17 does not determine whether you're going to be the better golfer in the long run............

kid hits it 270 now and its realistic to say that he could add 20-50 yards to his game............. now that puts him above the tour average so it comes down to the other aspects of his game to see if he'll make a career of it (temperament, short game, putting, accuracy, creativity, cojones)

Length isn't everything........ thank god ;)
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Re: Best lag since Hogan...and only average distances 2 years 2 months ago #33005

Glad you feel there is some merit to my post........ everyone develops differently and I think most 15 year olds would be very happy with 270 yard drives especially with good accuracy. Its just that if you compare your son to a bell curve example like Dominic Mazza then you start to feel he should be hitting 360 yards!! Somewhat unfair as he's the only 16 year old in the world doing it.

No, it is not my intent to create a new LD contender; as said in one of earlier posts, rather dispelling my doubts if I did not make any mistakes in his earlier days and seeking some holes to fill in microscale. Luckily, we have lots of knowledgeable people here in the SiTD.

The reason I exaggerate (and I agree it was a bit too much) is that I have really benefited from your analysis since first viewing your videos on youtube and I have taken so much great information from you over the last couple of months....... I find you a very unique Hogan resource! So a big personal thanks from myself and I hope I can offer some useful advice in return.

I am honoured to hear that you found my concepts interesting and useful. Thank you very much for kind words and you're very welcome.

Length isn't everything........ thank god

Yes, thank God -- but USGA/R&A + media are doing everything to make it happen, unfortunately. I am very sad to live in the times when true ballstriking quality, accuracy and consistency start to matter less than ability to hit it long. Rough isn't rough anymore, courses are becoming less and less penal, almost all is being decided on greens... :angry:
The only one good news is that US Open is coming and hopefully Olympic will be a brutal test for long and inaccurate ballwhackers.

Cheers
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