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A few issues, if I may.

Lee, Matthew and Steve -- I decided to shorten the list to the very few who had really the reputation of the best ballstrikers. Otherwise we are in trouble since we can add lots of greats who were excellent winners but without such reputation.



No. Double shift to the elbow plane is not forced in any case. It is the best option of all. I wanted to discuss it later, but if you already touched the topic -- elbow plane (preferably early elbow plane) is another common denominator of the greatest ballstrikers because forearm supporting the shaft creates the best scenario for controlling shaft torques that must be produced during the swing for physical reasons. Shaft not being in-line with rear forearm, as in case of the so-called sigle shifters, is much more difficult to control.

As regards Nick Price and The List -- I agree wholeheartedly. He had the reputation of being the best ballstriker of the 90-ies.




Tapio, I do not see the correlation here, at least to the extent that it should refer to common denominators.

Cheers

Since we are on the elbow plane track...

Nature made the elbow joint the way it cannot move in all possible directions because it would be too weak to support a lot of physical activities correctly; therefore, hard structure needs additional motions of forearm to adjust the lack of RoM in the elbow joint to allow some physical actions to be achievable. One of this motion is pronation/supination of the forearm (turning the forearm axially without necessity of moving the elbow joint in space). Physics of golf swing must include pronation/supination (and bending the rear elbow as well, BTW) because otherwise one couldn't make a full swing.
Now, when rear forearm pronates (during downswing) it affect simultaneously the shaft and the clubface. It is much easier to control the clubface when shaft is aligned parallelly - or better said - is a parallel extension of pronating body part. Any angle between it (i.e. when shaft is not parallel) forces an additional action of wrist to adjust to impact.
Probably this is one of main reasons why the most consistent ballstrikers were elbow planers with their rear forearm supporting the shaft and rear humerus tight to the body. Other reason was that their pivot was great enough to let the above occur. It requires the rear elbow joint be on the rear hip at impact. The more the elbow goes in front of the body the worse for the whole motion. People often say "stuck" incorrectly.The rule of thumb is -- the stronger the pivot is the more open is main body at impact (hips more, shoulder girldle less of course due to sequentiality) and the more is the lead arm pinned accross the chest while the rear elbow close to the rear hip.
Now we are coming at defining another very crucial common denominator of the best ballstriker -- great pivot ensuring great sequentiality from the ground up. It means that hips are more open at impact than torso and torso than shoulder girdle. The last is open a tad in relation to the baseline. All distortions as e.g. very open hips with closed shoulders or hips open very little at impact result usually with thowing the rear elbow too much to the front and straightening the rear arm too much before entering the impact zone which is equal to losing control of the torques and often ending with a dreaded crossover release -- the last thing a good ballstriker needs.

Cheers

I would like to put forth these pictures of Ben Hogan, probably my most favorite:



In the second picture, we can see how the slap-hinge release looks post-impact. Notice the cupping of the left wrist and the straight line relationship between the clubshaft and the right arm.

In the third picture, the thing I notice the most is that the club is still rotating around the body IN SYNC with it. It has not outraced the body's rotation, and conversely, the body has not slowed down. What makes this possible, in my opinion, is maintaining somewhat of a straight line relationship between the right arm and clubshaft. One thing about Hogan's swing we don't always see in others' swings is that the club and right arm remain in a straight line well into the follow through. He hasn't tried to slow down his hands; if he did, he might have a look like Luke Donald, where an angle develops between the right arm and the club very soon after impact.

With reference to elbow plane, while we obviously can't see how the club is planed in relation to his forearm (because the camera angle is wrong, duh), we can see that the clubshaft dissects his body somewhere just below his scapulas, around the middle of his back. We can also see a 90 degree angle formed between the clubshaft and his back ie. the club is perpendicular to his upper body. This suggests a shallow approach that is consistent with the elbow plane.

Personally, I prefer observing pictures and/or motions of the greatest ballstrikers when they are older, past their prime. They know exactly what to do to obtain the result they want, and because of this, they were able to modify their motions as their bodies became less capable. It can show us the diversity of possible motions that work successfully, as well as providing alternative ways to hit the golf ball for less athletically capable people.

Very nice post, Matt.

Look here:










resulting in this....:





Poetry.

Mr..Gustin was a great man....I played against his son Chris who was a hellva a player himself....

Great pictures! The Nelson photo shows the shaft shallowing to the elbow plane very well. Also notice how the shaft is more or less in line with the right forearm at impact.

I recall watching a video of EA Tischler, who is a swing instructor, describing the 3 possible slots a golfer can hit from: the hip slot, the torso slot, and the shoulder slot (I hope I'm getting these right). Anywho, I'm mentioning this because I think it is possible to achieve an early elbow plane ONLY from the hip and torso slots (the hip slot moreso than the torso slot). Hogan, Nelson and Trevino are examples of hip slotters, while Moe can be seen as an example of a torso slotter. I believe that using the shoulder slot may provide an angle of attack too steep onto the ball, although I may be wrong.

That Snead picture also displays an idea that I've been toying with... I've come to my own conclusions concerning the movement of the arms and the body. The arms, on the downswing, should move in to out. The body, on the other hand, rotates to the left. The opposition of their directions makes it seem like everything is rotating left, but in reality, we are trying to swing our arms from inside out while our body keeps them from going too far out. I think this explains how someone with a body rotating to the left can still maintain the line of compression. I believe the concept of two bodies accelerating in opposing directions is called parametric acceleration.

Kind of, but not really, off topic question: all of the golfers in the list have a backswing that requires a drop into the slot in transition. What I've wondered for a while is whether or not there is any benefit to dropping into the slot from the backswing, than, let's say, going straight to the slot FROM the backswing, a la Doug Sanders?

Dariusz Jedrzejewski wrote:


Agree the bending elbow, but I have to disagree the first part of that. I can easily do full backswing without any pronation or supination. I think most of my students stay neutral according that move.

IMO pronation will produce the lay off club and supination across the line shaft in transition.

If you draw the line from the shaft via your thumb and check where that line is pointing in relation to your shoulder line, it will remain about the same at setup and transition. I mean it is about perpendicular to your shoulders at both moments. Of course shoulder ext/int rotations as well abduction/adduction plays some role there, but I still see it quite simple movement to research.

I know Ken Venturi is not on the list but wanted to share these great views of him, especially since he was apparently very close to Hogan and definitely was taken under the Wee Icemons wing and obviously was privy to many of Hogan's thoughts.

Tapio Santala wrote:


To be clear here is the sequence to clarify my thoughts.



The relation of the thumb and elbow remains the same all the time and it's about same also at setup. What I see there is bit of ext rotation of the left shoulder and neutral forearm that never rotates. If you drop his hands straight down from transition and then just turn the body back to setup, the face is still square.

Tapio Santala wrote:



I have to disagree , the left forearm can pronate from address without the shaft been laid off. You must be thinking of a fully pronated forearm which reaches it's max rom. But you do not have to max out the rom to have pronation or supination, they are still going to be called a pronated motion or a supinated motion.

Just like in the d.s. the reverse can happen without going to a full maxed out rom. You can over do anything.
I have seen your video's on this and you exagerrate these movements to try and fit your belief.

There are studies done that show there is indeed pronation and supination in the swing. Of course you can do lots of things in a demo in static positions or in slow motion, but that isn't really representative of a full speed swing.

I have seen one such paper that i'm sure many have also read by a Professor of Physics Steven Nesbit.
And I believe it is referred to as positive gamma torque i.e. supination. Very interesting paper with some insights to the torques produced and the work and power in the swing. I suggest you read it, maybe it will change your view on these things. Then again after reading some of the things you post elsewhere i doubt it.


cheers!

ray wrote:


I also have seen that Nesbits paper but I think it's so much more complicated to see what really happens. And in my video about that its clear that I overdo everything, but like you said, anyway we can see the direction of the effect. Do you know how those supination and pronation were defined in this Nesbits research? I didn't find that information from it but would like to see it if the information is there.

But the real and honest question is that if you look at those images I posted, do you see any left forearm rotation relative to the upper arm. Is there any rotation that moves left thumb away from the elbow line?

I know where you are coming from, Tapio. Indeed, I should have better used the notions arm external/internal rotation // supination/pronation. There may be scenarios when pronation of the lead arm is hardly noticeable because of the entire arm internal rotation taking on itself the majority of the work the work.

Let's continue our travel -- lastly, we mentioned about a correct sequentiality in the sagittal plane resulting in having great pivot ensuring great sequentiality from the ground up which means that hips are more open at impact than torso and torso than shoulder girdle. When we look at this scenario from the eye on the coronal plane (best observed from DTL view) we shall immediately notice that the so called tush line is being beautifully maintained and there is no sign of early extention of the lumbar part of the spine called informally "goat humping" -- whuch is another common denominator of the greatest ballstrikers in the history.
The coronal plane balance is being achieved and maintained throughout the swing (with a vivid help from what happens below pelvis which we shall talk about next).

Look at these pics and see the common denominator (showing also the afore mentioned in-line position of the shaft and forearm at impact and bent rear elbow at impact) :







Cheers

Matthew D. wrote:




Matthew great pic.

Middle pic. see the butt and center of clubface is dead in line with his stretching armpit has zero to to with inline the arm trust me everyones arm lines up with shaft some above it and some below it thats no secret so thats a given BUT nobody dynamically stretches down through and away from their armpit like this. The clud is swinging around the right side of his head and neck andand own through the gravitaional field his body is chasing or following the stretched arms and club slowly. people who swing or make th club go around their body stop their body thinking thats what it is but its not. why is becuase of 4 ball joints and those 4 pivot points. Its part intertia push force and ball joints not locked up but getting pulled by the force but also being allowed to be. I do it as well I also have a video on this very thing and why in a 3 dimensional world and where in the pelvis area it happens no matter if we want it to or not. also in the video I show people how everyone goes in 3 plane or has a three plane golf swing. 1 plane is one dimensional 2 planes is two imensional and 3 planes is Hogan and a select few others also its the highest level of perfection we ca play a game in. This also applies no force on our bodies and no twisting muscles rather stretching through motion and perfect muscle memory happens when we stretch and when we have a three plane golf swing. most people have no clue we can or even should have a three plane motion at all much less for Golf. one and two dimensional motions require massive amounts of rotational manipulation for it to just get back to impact and will not have enogh force to get the motion completed not to put into the ball. How to tell when a person is less then 3 plane swing......GOAT HUMP, HANG BACK, SPIN OUT or SHAFT LEAN Are all perfect signs . Hogan never straightens his legs until his finish he maintains bend longer than anyone on this page. Now he also has width longer and sooner then ayone on this page on the entire downswing . He also swings around his right armpit a not down with his right armpit like everyone on this page....

now the common link is for sure they all have a better than average down and forward angle in the trailing lower are. Hogan has a longer angle that goes from center of right palm that extends to a dot under his right armpit so his longest line goes up to his armpit and extends only to the end of the rubber grip. He travels ALAONG the earths pull not down into the earhs pull. The difference is huge for the effects of force on the hard and soft tissue. So the common links between hogan and the others is in fact the trailing limb via the hand. The bigger piece is where each feels the impact of the strike in there hand or hands. Also do they feel the strike in the handle or head or in the middle of shaft. if you do it correct you feel it in lower end of grip closets to where shaft comes out and head and post contact the shaft will apper to bend forward another tell tell. love the pick.. and love the slap hinge follow though motion. Its not a slap hinge hit its slap hinge follow through there is a huge difference in that. has to do with a imaginary loop that goes from hip socket to hip socket on a forward leaning arch that comes out of us to the end of our hands not the ground.. GREAT EYE and great concept of what the best way to utilize Gravity friction in a 3 dimensioal world that we all live in and cannot change that there are no shortcuts that will beat those constants ever. There are perfect ways to work together that unlocks power and accuracy that people have NO CLUE EVEN EXSISTED OR WAS POSSIBLE. Yet they do it all day everyday on many things its just they are not looking for power and accuracy like in golf but they are getting it in the other things.Golf brings out ones DUMMY SIDE I CALL IT. Because so much is happening in one place people have zero clue of how motion unravals and why it needs to. They base everything on a look based on a 1 or 2 dimensioNAL point of reference therefore when they see a guy like me or Hogan or Martin Ayers that move in 3 dimensions they BLACKOUT a piece of what they see does not register. They want to stay in thire 1 or 2 dimension BUT want people to show them the 3rd dimensional connect and try to apply that to their motion or make it fit... NOT EVER GONNA HAPPEN. All answers are in the hands and the first set of knuckles in any motion you watch good bad or terrible. the mimic out thoughts and beliefs also from mid forearm out to those knuckles. in the lower its thewebbing in base of tose to mid calf the ares to focus on EVERYTHING between those 2 upper and lower areas react based on what the each do or dont do... These control the Bodies Anatomical Motion trains and Skeletal planes in a 3 dimensional world. Also the exact spot in which Hogan is hitting through the ball WHICH IF YOU PM ME I WILL SHOW YOU AND TELL YOU AND YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE WHAT HE AND I DO. For as long as I have been on Youtube and shooting videos NOBODY HAS EVEN PICKED UP ON IT and i mean NOBODY. I figured the people WHO KNEW THE ANSWER TO A BALLS FIGHT WOULD PICK UP AND NOBODY HAS. FEW I HAVE SHARED IT WITH BUT ITS A STRIGHT LINE THROUGH A POINT YOU CANNOT IMAGINE AT SPEED YOU NEVER DREAMED YOU COULD ACHIVE BOTH FAST AND SLOW. I WAS FORTUNATE TO HAVE BEEN SHOW AND TOLD ABOUT THIS ONE PIECE THAT WAS MISREPRESENTED. GO FIGURE A TYPO IN THE MEDIA ABOUT WHAT A GUY SAID. SWINGS ARE SWINGS I DONT CARE REALLY HOW ANYONE DOES IT REALLY AND IF YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHERE YOUR HITTING AND THOUGH AND ITS NOT THE BACK OF INSIDE LIKE WAS REPORTED YOU WILL UNDERSTAND ABSOLUTE VOLUMES ABOUT CONTROLLING THAT BALL EVEN WITH TERRIBLE IN FACT YOU CAN DO IT WITH THE WORSE MECHANICS YOU CAN DREAM OF AND YOU WILL NOT EVER FAIL FROM ANY PATH OR ANGLE.... MR. HOGAN WAS PURE GENIUS AND THE MAN THAT SHARED IT WITH ME IN 2006 IS RIGHT PEOPLE JUST DONT THINK OR PAY ATTENTION. HOGAN COULD HAVE DONE ANY LOOK HE WANTED SWING WISE IT WOULDNT MATTER HE SOLVED THE PUZZLE OF A ROUND OBJECT IN FLIGHT AND WHERE TO FOCUS ON.

HE WORKED THE PROBLEM OUT BY UNDERSTANDING HOW THE SPHERE WORKED IN FLIGHT AND AT STRIKE FIRST THEN SETUP TO STRIKE IT LIKE THAT. THERE IS NO PLANE OR ANGLE THAT WILL NOT WORK IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO STRIKE IT AND HOW GRAVITY PLAYS ON IT BY DOING SO.

ALSO LOOK AT THE PICKS SOME PEOPLE TURN INTO THEMSELVES AND SOME OUT AND AROUND THEMSELVES BOTH GREAT. TURN THROUGH YOURSELF LIKE HOGAN IS DOING AND I DO.

Lee,

You spoke of the "exact spot in which Hogan is hitting through the ball." Is this range ball line in line with that spot through the ball? The tee is facing the target. I had a good range session, chipping session, and putting session with this "through the ball" intention.

Thanks

Darius
I must admit being a bit put off by your response to my attempted inclusion of the venerable tiger in your thread.
I respect your wishes since its your thread.
I just would like to ask how one could argue that he's not a great ballstriker.
His irons have always been great period. His driving in 2000 was excellent. He had prodigious power and when he was driving well he was basically unbeatable.
I think there's a big advantage to not shifting planes in that the timing element of the clubhead drop is eliminated totally. IMO there's simply less complexity to that. I know it may not be biomechanically 'ideal' to folks here but the results of that style are inarguable. Adam Scott uses a similar move to great effect.
I love Hogan's style very much but I can recognize its not the only way.
I think some players naturally tend more towards a move requiring less reroute in transition.
The point I am making is that the players mind plays a huge role in their own ideal dynamics. If the player naturally tends towards a bit steeper plane with no clubhead drop mentally perhaps it would be best to build their motion which suits their tendency.
Frankly also the shaft to forearm alignment can be maintained even with a steeper plane particularly if the player actively uses the right hand you will get that 'look'
I think in golf as in any game each style comes with advantages and disadvantages.
IMO its a mistake to say everyone should swing flat.
A person might prefer that look but that means little.
We don't move the ball with our good looks. The club moves the ball.
I think some great strikers of the ball work best from steeper and it would be a shame to discount their prowess.
One common denominator of any great striker is knowing where the face is always.
With that alone many paths can fit great golf.
I always enjoy your contributions so don't take this post in a negative light.
I honestly see a lot of advantages to a tiger2k swing.
I think it makes for a much simpler handpath is one.
I love elbow plane guys also but shifting planes seems a tricky business particularly if the player does not develop that instinctively.
the physics and mechanics are one side to greatness but IMO the mental side affects which method should be used by working in concert with the players instincts and not against those.

Steve, it is nothing big. First, as I said in my first post, I wanted to concentrate on THE BEST BALLSTRIKERS IN HISTORY OF GAME ONLY. It means on such guys who were nominated to be such by their playing fellows as well as other knowledgeable people. I am not interested in this thread about best winners or best players or best scorers -- otherwise such guys as Moe or George weren't sniffing this list. Woods never was taken into account as a guy who deserved this status.
Secondly, I would have put him on the list (of course not bold letters) if I decided to keep the so-called additional list (in these not bold letters) that was being completed thanks to proposals of guys from the forum. Even Miller made the list despite his driver and woods game was mediocre. Woods cannot control his driver even on a worse level than Miller.
The list is made of guys who were THE BEST FROM TEE TO GREEN WITH ALL CLUBS.
Lastly, it is not my fault that biokinetics points clearily that double shifters and elbow planers use optimal pattern for a human playing golf for many reasons -- it's a topic for another thread anyhow. It is confirmed by my researches. Moreover, it is confirmed by facts you can be aware of reading this thread -- all of the guys from the bold letters list were (EARLY) ELBOW PLANERS and DOUBLE SHIFTERS.

Cheers

Ben Hogan said this person had the best swing he had ever seen

MICKEY WRIGHT

She is included on the original list Dariusz presented so I thought it would be good to add a couple of videos of her.......to see how well a woman could adhere to the common denominators of the greatest ballstrikers.

Mickey-great call!

D
I can just respectfully disagree on tiger. Only one man has more majors. You can't get that by being crooked.
Haney maybe transferred to him the driver yips.
With butch he was untouchable and won the tiger slam.
I agree the older guys were awesome but I am not willing to discount the greatness that is tiger woods.

Steve P wrote:


Not only him is out the list but also the guy who is better than him in winning majors as well as the third one. Again, I am not interesting in winning that is just an effect of many more factors than only great ballstriking.

The list do not contain only old guys but also those contemporary to Woods. I am sorry to disappoint you but Woods does not qualify to my list.

Cheers

OK, back to the business. As we said before, the coronal plane balance is being achieved and maintained throughout the swing. Mind you, it is not just balance (even a goat humper can learn to maintain 'artificial' balance) It cannot be done without properly directed work of the under-pelvic section of the body...and this, in consequence, cannot be done without proper transverse plane compression/expansion, other words without effective use of ground forces. This is another common denominator of the greatest ballstrikers. Note that this goes exactly in feedback with the last one, i.e. with maintaining the tush line and overall great coronal plane balance.
Of course we should mention here maintaining balance in the sagittal plane, but it is not so much important taking into account that regulating the width and diagonality of stance settles the issue almost completely (almost -- because without proper weight shift for a biped it would be tough to do).

Look at these photos (I have specially put the latter in the sequence as the first):











Cheers

It is a good time for making a resume. The most obvious and visible common denominators of the best ballstrikers are as follows (in order of no importance):

-- as small as possible rate of clubface closure in the wide impact zone;

-- pivot guided motion from both the ground up as well as from the core out without stalling of the pivot in the wide impact zone;

-- plane shift to the elbow plane as early as possible resulting in rear humerus being supported by the pivoting body and rear forearm supporting the shaft;

-- balance in the coronal plane maintained without a sign of early extension;

-- transverse plane compression after transition with a muscular effort to use ground forces (both vertically as well as horizontally oriented) as well as possible.


Cheers

Darius, i think you have to have one modern player in the mix. That player should be OOsteizen. He has a phenomenal swing. Most efficent ive seen in quite some time.

Trying to find a flaw, this swing might be as close to technical perfection as I've seen.



[/quote]

JASON RICHARDSON wrote:


No, Jason. He might have a great swing but he's NOT regarded as a superb ballstriker. If you look closely on the list you'll see 4 modern players who were given the title of being great ballstrikers (with Furyk on top of the list -- probably the only one who's Trackman verified).

Mrs. Wright has been added to the List in the ladies section. BTW, Bradley has already posted these beautiful footages a few posts before yours.

Cheers

Dariusz Jedrzejewski wrote:


Ok, but I think your missing the boat here. On Wright, I stole the video from Bradley.