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I like this

funny, almost forgot about it Everything You Thought You Knew About Learning Is Wrong

Drew,

Interesting video. Regarding whether or not muscles actually have memory, I submit the following quirky film clip for general consideration.

Regarding the potential ineffectiveness (suspicious ineffectiveness) of block training, I submit the following synopsis of how Bubba Watson learned how to play golf.

"The seemingly miraculous 160-yard wedge shot that Watson hit Sunday to win the Masters—the ball started out low under a tree limb and then hooked a sharp right onto the green—was just the type of shot he hit by the thousands growing up in Bagdad, Fla., hard by Alabama and Mississippi on the state's panhandle. When his father first put a club in his hand at age six—a cut-down, left-handed nine iron that a local club pro donated—it was love at first sight. Watson took his new toy, because that's what it was, into the yard and started hitting whiffle balls.
'At the time I didn't know it was practice, it was just something fun to do,' Watson told me. 'Instead of playing with army men or whatever, I played golf, like for hours every day.' When it rained, he brought the club inside to pitch balls off the carpet.
Watson's basic game in those days was to draw a 5-foot circle in the dirt driveway (that was his hole) and see how few strokes it took him to get the ball back to the hole going first clockwise around the house, hitting left-to-right hooks, and then counterclockwise, hitting right-to-left slices. Trees and bushes were natural obstacles. 'If the whiffle ball stuck up in a bush, I'd just play it from there,' he said. He learned to pick the ball clean off the driveway because his father didn't like the cars getting dusty."

Full article by John Paul available for reading at:
online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527023...342043871827450.html

There is something very intriguing about this concept of random training.

Eyeball wrote:


I don't think it is "random". You just play games like let's hit a flop shot with a 5 Iron that stops on a dime. Or try same shot with different clubs or different shots with one club etc.

Eyeball wrote:


Hebron failed to consider the human version of headless mike who was last seen posting in the Ultimate Secret thread.

I wonder how much of this really has to do with chemical depletion or neural transmitter desensitizing than 'changing' the task. In other words if you need to work on a specific move or shot for an upcoming tournament, and you follow 'their' interpretation of the studies, and practice varied shots as well as the one you really need help on is it really as good as just practicing the same shot BUT stopping with intervals of either rest, talking to someone, reading a book for 5 min, stretching etc. and then continuing with the same shot.

Is it the 'mixing it up' or is it the rest/distraction between 'sets'. Does their method gradually acquire skill at the cost of over taxing energy and body wear that could otherwise be avoided or it's time better used towards the single goal.

Don't like the way Hebron says "do your best to stay away from block training" - just doesn't sound like the right interpretation the research should support. Sounds more like ' ...well people only have so much time, so it's probably best that when they do train - try to train this way..' instead of explaining to us why it really works so we can more effectively use the technique to best suit a specific need.

I had not heard of Bubba's story before reading this...just love how innocent it all started out...the best way. I did also see an interesting video somewhere of Rory McIlroy's swing, side by side as a 3 year old and as filmed at the masters...just incredible how alike they were...

something to be said for natural talent!

they cant explain why it really works, there are theories but thats just that theories. what you are describing is hardware and the research conducted was at the level of cognitive psychology. while simpler things can be explained based on hardware alone eg what you described can be given an example of walking into a room where somebody has been dead for awhile, if you dont run and throw up straight away and spend enough time in that room you would get used to smell. not sure its the best example but ... anyway, one theory they have is related to context and context switching, see what i just did here, and the idea is that by switching context or interleaving you are able to better distinguish between similarities and differences between related contexts and form higher level representations based on that which in turn would help later with retrieval even if context differs. for example you are block learning to hit same 5 iron shot off range mat aligned at specific angle to a target and when the context differs eg actual play many things dont match but you need a solid retrieval of a skill only related to hitting that 5 iron shot, no matter what the context is. another theory has again to do with context switching and reloading but it focuses on storage and retrieval of only essential data due to reloading ie when you switch context, do something else then switch back to the previous context, rinse and repeat what do you take from each context to successfully reload it again, presumably only the core skill or knowledge vs block approach where you dont reload and that same core skill or knowledge is mixed up with alot of other stuff, doesnt get distilled and fades away, making later retrieval more difficult. interestingly according to related studies if you do alot of block learning on frequent enough basis you just as good or better but you end up wasting time maintaining it hot while you could have learned something else. the link i posted above, that article contains another link to Robert Bjork UCLA page which has more information like pubs if interested.

phily wrote:

James Tucker wrote:


My theory about how little kids are sometimes awesome and have fantastic swings is that they are physically weak so they learn (naturally?) to leverage and balance and swing the club. The club is too heavy for them so they are forced to learn to swing. And yes, I mean swing, not hit. Anybody ever see a little kid "hitter"?

When we get big and strong, we think we will show this puny golf club who's boss. And then we flail around and thrash at it until we learn the right way to do things. And when I say "we" I especially mean ME. I'm only recently learning to stop all the thrashing.

I first read about Mike the Headless Chicken in an old issue of Life magazine on the internet. To me, the story of Mike is as quirky as it is interesting. Every time I hear people mention the issue of whether or not muscle memory actually exists, I think of Mike.

Drew wrote,

"Hebron failed to consider the human version of headless mike who was last seen posting in the Ultimate Secret thread."

That's funny… the human version.

I'll admit that I occasionally feel like a headless chicken running around wildly, careening off the walls of common thought patterns, skipping around the discussion board barnyard of the Dirt only to stop for the infrequent but necessary narcoleptic nap. I enjoy freedom of thought when learning. I'm not much for censorship of thought, less so for censorship of my own haphazard (but generally harmless) personal thoughts.

More so than feeling like a headless chicken, I find myself feeling like a headless, bodiless, eyeball full of unbounded mental energy.

isn't some part of mikes brain stem or spinal cord still there? got to be . . . . . .

***Edit Note****

And when I say Mike I mean mike the headless chicken rooster, not our sevam1 of course.

In all seriousness, I think the Hebron video that Drew posted IS interesting. I have never really thought of block training, but I suppose that is what I find myself doing all the time. In fact, I find 99% of the golfers at the range doing exactly the same thing.

kenan wrote:


Probably so. Still weird though.

block training = banging one's head against wall

I'm torn on block training though. I've learned a lot of important lessons whilst futilely thrashing about and experiencing general misery. Block training may help one realize that block training is not that effective and thusly therefore and therein lead one down a path of more clearer understanding.

Cy wrote:


That makes sense, Cy.

Perhaps it's not the randomness of the event, but the singular nature of the opportunity and the ability to compare the effect immediately with the following event.

kenan wrote:


Kenan,

I can (and do) hit a whole shag bag to a particular flag during practice. I love it. It's very relaxing and mindless in a way. Then comes the singular opportunity to hit the same shot during play. Oops. I flub it and grimace politely. I drop a second ball and hit the shot. My friends just roll their eyes.

The second-shot-golfer in all of us is amazing. The first-shot-golfer? Not so much.

Eyeball wrote:


T
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James Tucker,

I find great interest in the way that Bubba learned and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with block training.

Phily / Anton,

I am going to think further about what you guys are writing about. I need to skedaddle for the night.

anton wrote:

Anton,

thank you for taking the time to post that primer, excellent. (will follow the second link)

I don't disagree with with any of theories put forth here in fact I, and I'm sure others here do too, mostly / instinctively practice this way (edit - as Eyeball already mentioned). But I do fall into kind of a trance every now and then (you've got to be a little ocd to hit buckets of balls) where I prefer to stay with the same club, same shot, and just work the swing for all it's worth. Knowing now what's been brought up this may not be where I 'learn' the most but it is where I mentally cement a decision or validate the insights or moves perhaps previously arrived at. So maybe it appears like this is where I learned the most or what I 'take away' - but it could just be where I'm writing my notes too.

------------------------------------

(off the subject, on the mechanical side - just wanted to say you get so much more out of practice (you simply play better too) on the days you exercise. even if it's an AM workout and you hit the range at night the body is still activated. there are some tweaks and hacks too I'm beginning to notice - on 'back days', no chest, I'll notice that I tend to lose the connection to my chest and upper left arm. Some quick isometric chest exercises to pump the blood in & activate them - problem solved.)

Eyeball wrote:


Exactly Eyeball. Every variation is a new experiment. The more experiments the more learning. You have INFINITE options to experiment.

you can still hit your 800-1000 balls a session or whatever but their idea is to switch context eg switch club, switch target, switch shot shape that kinda thing. when you do the same thing, that trance like state you describe is when you loose focus. combine that with physical fatigue and after awhile you no longer know what you are doing or why you doing it or thats how it feels to me anyway. switching context does not prevent fatigue but it should allow to stay sharp unless all the shots you are trying to do are piece of cake to you. unfortunately most accessible ranges suck at how they setup and dont exactly help with this eg distance markers on the same line and couple of randomly placed flags is all you get but then that old range tractor can save the day for you, its moving with what looks like a drunk guy driving it pattern so its completely unpredictable and hard to hit. anyway, writing this i thought about Mr Jackie Burke video where he talks about how Ben Hogan used to practice. this is sort of contrary to what most people believe and worth listening to.



phily wrote:

man I needed to hear that Jackie Burke video. thank you.

ha! range carts (tractor) - my favorite. They are the perfect (context switch) practice example too - I've posted as much way back on Rocks thread saying "... a moving target, like a range cart etc., gives a sense of immediacy & somehow stimulates or better engages the brain. I'm not joking here, I really think moving targets are an underrated, under-explored way to develop the swing..."

(it's all starting to sink in but I still want to believe that on the block training level we can't help but context switch on a smaller scale by changing internal targets of focus in our body parts, motions etc. but that chemical depletion or tolerance saturation is the cause that makes a larger scale context switch change so effective.
sort of like how college students cramming for a test take Ritalin etc. and remain engaged in block studying.)

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