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[url="index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewgroup&groupid=83&Itemid=3"]Martin Ayers[/url] Group Forum: A group for everyone to discuss my teaching methods. I have based what I teach on many lessons learned both through mentors of mine and by looking at some of the greats of the game. Particularly going back into previous eras, where I believe much of what was learned has been forgotten. There has been many advancements made in Golf, but I believe for every one of those there has been a corresponding piece of wisdom lost.

I'm always open to new ideas, so if you have one, feel free to share it in the group forum, you'll find all kinds of views are welcome.
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TOPIC: club lie angles

club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7197

  • Paxton Berry
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Martin, just curious as to what lie angles you settled with on your irons?
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7266

  • Timothy Goynes
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I can't speak for Martin, but man, all you gotta do is get the lie angle such that the club comes into the ball "level," not heel-up or toe-up. A good lie angle for one may not be good for others. For example, I'm a reasonably tall fella (6 feet tall) but my lie angles are 1.5 degrees flat, because I have more knee flex at address than other people my height...thus, I "reach out" to the ball a little more, which necessitates a flatter lie angle. Not much, but enough to make a difference.

So don't worry too much about what lie angle Martin has...his fundamentals still hold true even if your lie angle (which is dictated by your height AND posture, remember) is different than his.

Actually, Elk has a really good video somewhere in the Vault about "dynamic lie angle fitting." Check it out...it's really good!
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7268

  • Jim Pruitt
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Great topic for me, something I've "worried" about and an issue I've never really known how to address. I've always felt like you could give a good player an "upright" club or a "flatter" club and they would be able to compensate and figure out a way to make either one work. I did Elk's dynamic lie angle test and the line on the clubface "leaned" or pointed toward the toe as I suspected it would, too upright. The gentleman I took my irons to brought them down/flatter 1.5 degrees...from what he called 3 degrees upright of standard, although he told me there really isn't an industry set standard. Feels better, did Elk's test again and the line on my face was more vertical. Looks better to me at address and it is reducing the number of pull draws I was hitting unless I compensated. I absolutely agree with Timothy on what is good for one is obviously not necessarily good for others but like Paxton I'm still curious. For example, to me if you look at video of Elk in '95 compared to today it looks like his hands used to be lower, maybe flatter lie angles than what we see him doing today, not sure, just curious. Thanks, Jim
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7464

This is the debate I have been having with myself. Should I have the lie angles set to the swing I want, or set to the swing I currently have? What does everyone think?
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7469

  • Jim Pruitt
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mchepp wrote:
This is the debate I have been having with myself. Should I have the lie angles set to the swing I want, or set to the swing I currently have? What does everyone think?

Great question...obviously most of us don't have the luxury a tour player would have with any number of clubs with whatever specs they want to try when they want to try them. Maybe the best way for us to experiment with lie angles would be to find some cheap used irons at a pawn shop and bend them to different lie angles and experiment with them. A lie/loft machine is something I've always wanted so I can do just that conveniently. Anyway, I've struggled with that same question you're asking yourself so many times....
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7473

  • anton
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whats the point in setting lie angles to a swing you dont have ? if you dont have it you dont even know what lie angles you gonna have with it so what you gonna set them to ?
mchepp wrote:
This is the debate I have been having with myself. Should I have the lie angles set to the swing I want, or set to the swing I currently have? What does everyone think?
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7477

  • Timothy Goynes
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mchepp wrote:
This is the debate I have been having with myself. Should I have the lie angles set to the swing I want, or set to the swing I currently have? What does everyone think?

Your lie angle shouldn't change just because your swing changes per se. It COULD change if your "dream swing" requires a different posture at address. You're trying to get the club to sole dead flat at address, because that's likely where it's gonna return to. But if your lie angles are correct now, and you don't change your setup/posture with the new swing, I don't care what your swing looks like. Don't change the lie angle.

Example: I used to stand really tall, almost no knee flex at address. A couple years ago I started to squat more at address to feel more "springy" through the shot. This pushed the club out farther from my body, and thus necessitated a flatter lie angle.

Here's the deal: Lie angles are quick, cheap and easy to adjust by any qualified tech. They can usually do it while you wait. So get them adjusted for how you play now. If anything changes over time that requires the lie angles to change, then go have them changed. Simple as that.
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7479

  • Jim Pruitt
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Example: I used to stand really tall, almost no knee flex at address. A couple years ago I started to squat more at address to feel more "springy" through the shot. This pushed the club out farther from my body, and thus necessitated a flatter lie angle.

Mr. Goynes, that's what I'm saying, if I want to experiment with moving the ball closer to me or further away...why not have a spare club that's more upright or flatter than your current angles and try the new ball position with those and see how it feels? If I take my current 5-iron and move the ball enough to necessitate a significant new lie angle then experimenting with that club and new position isn't going feel or look very good to me, how will I know if I'm going to like that new position experimenting with a club that doesn't "fit" it? I don't want to go bend it flatter, try it, not like it, bend it more upright, try it, not like it, bend it again....Try to find a few cheap, comparable, "spare" clubs and experiment with those first was my thought...I don't want to go and bend my best/only set until I'm positive that new angle is what I want. Sincerely, Jim
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7480

  • Jim Pruitt
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JimPruitt wrote:
Example: I used to stand really tall, almost no knee flex at address. A couple years ago I started to squat more at address to feel more "springy" through the shot. This pushed the club out farther from my body, and thus necessitated a flatter lie angle.

Mr. Goynes, that's what I'm saying, if I want to experiment with moving the ball closer to me or further away...why not have a spare club that's more upright or flatter than your current angles and try the new ball position with those and see how it feels? If I take my current 5-iron and move the ball enough to necessitate a significant new lie angle then experimenting with that club and new position isn't going feel or look very good to me, how will I know if I'm going to like that new position experimenting with a club that doesn't "fit" it? I don't want to go bend it flatter, try it, not like it, bend it more upright, try it, not like it, bend it again....Try to find a few cheap, comparable, "spare" clubs and experiment with those first was my thought...I don't want to go and bend my best/only set until I'm positive that new angle is what I want. Sincerely, Jim

Also, I will say I like Elk and Mike's dynamic lie angle video and going that route better than an indoor lie board test. I'm actually hitting a golf ball and getting ball flight feedback. The last lie angle board test I did indoors with a plastic ball...I can swing and manipulate (toe up or toe down) easily when I'm not hitting a real ball and not seeing or concerned about ball flight when it's just going into a net....Jim
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7481

  • Timothy Goynes
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It's good to have an experimental set, sure. But even with your main set, you'll see what changes need to be made to the clubs pretty quickly. When I started "squatting" more, I saw my shots all going left, even on "good" swings. That told me right away that the heel was digging in and the toe was flipping over...too upright. Had them bent and that fixed it right up.

I DO see your point, though. And if you have a loft/lie machine, I say tinker all you want!

One important point to remember as well. Whether you or a clubfitter bends the clubs, WRITE DOWN THE LIE ANGLE FOR EACH CLUB. Not "1.5 degrees flat" or whatever...because what is "standard" anyway? So write down PW - 57 degrees, 9 iron - 55 degrees, whatever it may be. That way, it's easy to get them back where they need to be whenever they start to drift.
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by Timothy Goynes.
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7484

  • anton
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get a spare 6i, there should be enough of those ex demo clubs floating on places like ebay for cheap and experiment with it all you want. then once you settle on something you can re-check against your own entire set and commit to it.

JimPruitt wrote:
Example: I used to stand really tall, almost no knee flex at address. A couple years ago I started to squat more at address to feel more "springy" through the shot. This pushed the club out farther from my body, and thus necessitated a flatter lie angle.

Mr. Goynes, that's what I'm saying, if I want to experiment with moving the ball closer to me or further away...why not have a spare club that's more upright or flatter than your current angles and try the new ball position with those and see how it feels? If I take my current 5-iron and move the ball enough to necessitate a significant new lie angle then experimenting with that club and new position isn't going feel or look very good to me, how will I know if I'm going to like that new position experimenting with a club that doesn't "fit" it? I don't want to go bend it flatter, try it, not like it, bend it more upright, try it, not like it, bend it again....Try to find a few cheap, comparable, "spare" clubs and experiment with those first was my thought...I don't want to go and bend my best/only set until I'm positive that new angle is what I want. Sincerely, Jim
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7496

Lots of good discussion here. I don't want to threadjack in Martin's forum, but I would like to further this discussion.

With regards to address, I feel like the swing does not return the hands to the same position as they were at address. I have watched enough slow motion swings I think that the club often returns on a slightly higher plane than the hands at address, I am no pro but that is my observation. So how the club is address may not be the same as during impact. Plus affects like shaft droop may also affect what happens to the club through impact.

In my opinion the human body, more specifically the subconscious, is a very skillful compensator. I believe a golfer of a decent skill can hit just about any iron straight given enough time. Give me a 6-iron set 8 degrees flat (54 degrees) and a month of hitting balls I'll bet I will have found a way to hit that thing straight. Either through flipping, cutting across it, what have you. My subconscious will find a way. I have proven that to myself because I have a number of sets of irons and I have bent them all to various lie angles, after enough time I can hit them all straight.

Now while I think I can compensate to make the ball flight lie, the divot is quite a different story. I also think that the body has a very difficult time compensating for shaft flex as the club get longer. The wrong shaft in the driver seems that the subconscious has some real trouble with that. Lie angles with irons though, I think the body can correct.

I have gone on a bit too long here, but I have not found a simple solution to my question yet.
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7499

  • UK Neil
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mchepp wrote:Lie angles with irons though, I think the body can correct.

I agree. Flat irons(for me) - swing like Moe, upright(for me) - swing like Jack. Though in essence you can use any swing with any set of clubs assuming you find the correct address position for the clubs. Once you have discovered your swing then get the lies adjusted and noted.

I still haven't found my swing, but I'm getting closer.
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by UK Neil.
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7500

  • anton
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that observation is correct and thats why you have to measure and adjust according to what happens at impact not at address. as far as we can get used and adopt to anything thats true but the point of fitting is to get your equipment to help you do what you wanna do and not get in your way. this game is hard enough as it is and we have to adopt and adjust to a variety of things every time we play it on any given day. last thing you want is your equipment getting in your way.

mchepp wrote:
Lots of good discussion here. I don't want to threadjack in Martin's forum, but I would like to further this discussion.

With regards to address, I feel like the swing does not return the hands to the same position as they were at address. I have watched enough slow motion swings I think that the club often returns on a slightly higher plane than the hands at address, I am no pro but that is my observation. So how the club is address may not be the same as during impact. Plus affects like shaft droop may also affect what happens to the club through impact.

In my opinion the human body, more specifically the subconscious, is a very skillful compensator. I believe a golfer of a decent skill can hit just about any iron straight given enough time. Give me a 6-iron set 8 degrees flat (54 degrees) and a month of hitting balls I'll bet I will have found a way to hit that thing straight. Either through flipping, cutting across it, what have you. My subconscious will find a way. I have proven that to myself because I have a number of sets of irons and I have bent them all to various lie angles, after enough time I can hit them all straight.

Now while I think I can compensate to make the ball flight lie, the divot is quite a different story. I also think that the body has a very difficult time compensating for shaft flex as the club get longer. The wrong shaft in the driver seems that the subconscious has some real trouble with that. Lie angles with irons though, I think the body can correct.

I have gone on a bit too long here, but I have not found a simple solution to my question yet.
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7529

  • Neil
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Dynamic lie test should be done for each club for desired results. You can't test one club and then adjust the rest of you're set based off of that one club. Each club behaves differently IMO from personal exp.
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7533

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thats correct but what this guy wants to do is to experiment with different positions and angles and see how it feels and what it does. sacrificing a single guinea pig middle club for that purpose should give him what he wants.
ShotLimit wrote:
Dynamic lie test should be done for each club for desired results. You can't test one club and then adjust the rest of you're set based off of that one club. Each club behaves differently IMO from personal exp.
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Re:club lie angles 3 years 8 months ago #7534

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anton wrote:
thats correct but what this guy wants to do is to experiment with different positions and angles and see how it feels and what it does. sacrificing a single guinea pig middle club for that purpose should give him what he wants.
ShotLimit wrote:
Dynamic lie test should be done for each club for desired results. You can't test one club and then adjust the rest of you're set based off of that one club. Each club behaves differently IMO from personal exp.

gotcha.
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