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TOPIC: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $

High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32231

Hey guys, so glad to come upon these forums! I LOVE these forums. You guys are all so smart

I am a TGM certified instructor. I've been really focusing on the left shoulder and left leg snap through the swing. I am 100% convinced that these are the most important elements to the golf swing.

With all of my students I have yet to see one of them have a left shoulder that is too high, or a left leg that is too stiff at impact. The higher the left shoulder, and the faster the left leg straightens the better.

I really focus on having my students actually try to decrease power accumulator #3 as much as possible and feel less lag pressure in power accumulator #2.

I also work on having my students hit the ball as flat footed as possible. if their feet aren't completely flat at impact, I'm pretty disappointed. Every great ball striker tends to have both feet screwed in on the ground at the moment of separation. Like Kenny Perry and Steve Elkington, two of the best of all time.

I think that anyone who things differently on this subject is probably completely wrong. What do you guys think?
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32241

  • Brad Owen
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I'm guessing these two guys would of made lousy students then.....

hoganimpact_2012-05-21.png
Trevinoimpact2.jpg


And this guys ballstriking just stinks, look at that horrible right foot :whistle:

001_FurykImpactDTL.jpg
Last Edit: 2 years 2 months ago by Brad Owen.
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32244

  • svsvincenzo
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Sean Illes wrote:
Hey guys, so glad to come upon these forums! I LOVE these forums. You guys are all so smart

I am a TGM certified instructor. I've been really focusing on the left shoulder and left leg snap through the swing. I am 100% convinced that these are the most important elements to the golf swing.

With all of my students I have yet to see one of them have a left shoulder that is too high, or a left leg that is too stiff at impact. The higher the left shoulder, and the faster the left leg straightens the better.

I really focus on having my students actually try to decrease power accumulator #3 as much as possible and feel less lag pressure in power accumulator #2.

I also work on having my students hit the ball as flat footed as possible. if their feet aren't completely flat at impact, I'm pretty disappointed. Every great ball striker tends to have both feet screwed in on the ground at the moment of separation. Like Kenny Perry and Steve Elkington, two of the best of all time.

I think that anyone who things differently on this subject is probably completely wrong. What do you guys think?

A high L shoulder and flat R foot doesn't match up. In order to have a high L shoulder, your R side has to bend inwards...so your R heel has to go off the ground.

What's the connection between high L shoulder and less #3?
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32248

  • Timothy Goynes
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Don't want you to feel like you're getting a rude welcome here, but R heel down at impact is not an important factor in the swing. As long as it is being PULLED up by the body's rotation rather than LIFTING up on its own, it is okay for it to be up.

For most people, R heel down + Left knee straightening = stand-up move, pivot stall and arm throw. Something like this:

rickie.jpg


Note the absence of turn between the two pics and the arms flying away from the body. You can hit a ball with this swing, but you need to hit a LOT of balls to have the timing down.

Most of the great ballstrikers in years past had R heel up before impact. Some pics are already posted here...here's a few more.

Gary Player
Gary_Player.jpg


Sam Snead
snead-impact-dtl-f.jpg


Bobby Jones
bobbyjones.JPG


Johnny Miller
miller_profil.jpg


Jack Nicklaus
nicklausimpact.jpg


These players also still retained some L knee flex into impact rather than straightening it. In fact, two of the greatest ballstrikers ever, Moe Norman and George Knudson, while they kept their R heels down longer than most, allowed the L knee to bow out towards the target through the hit...they didn't straighten it until well after the ball was gone.

Also, too aggressive of a left leg snap can damage the knee. It's why Tiger has had 4 knee surgeries to date. Oh, and lest someone say otherwise...Butch, Haney, Foley...none of them advocate a knee snap...that's something Tiger has done since he was a kid to get extra juice on the ball...but that has worked to his detriment.
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32251

I will try to address these comments in the order they were received:
I'm guessing these two guys would of made lousy students then.....And this guys ballstriking just stinks, look at that horrible right foot

Hogan and Trevino were both great ball strikers in spite of their feet at impact. If they had been under my instruction, who knows how goo they could have been? I do not consider Furyk to be a great ball striker, he is average at best. Almost all of my high school players are significantly better strikers than Jim Furyk, they just lack his mental game. Hogan and Trevino could have really improved with a higher right shoulder, without a doubt.
A high L shoulder and flat R foot doesn't match up. In order to have a high L shoulder, your R side has to bend inwards...so your R heel has to go off the ground.

What's the connection between high L shoulder and less #3?

This just isn't true. I just don't thin most players are physically ready to do what I'm talking about, which is why I advovate a golf workout program that is based almost exclusively on lifting as heavy a weight as possible from side to side. Picture putting a barbell across your back, then bending your right shoulder as low as possible while keep your feet flat, that's what we're working on every day. I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying that my high schoolers are literally carrying the ball 330+, even the lighter guys, while hitting 80% of fairways.

I have 14 year old kids who are doing the exercise I'm talking about with more than 250 pounds. If you're a grown man, you need to do this exercise with more than 300 pounds. If you have a barbell you can try it right now at home. Just put it across your back with as much weight as you can possibly put on it and bend your right shoulder down, then up. Do the other side. I reccomend doing this exercise daily for 10 reps and 3 sets with a LOT of weight.
What's the connection between high L shoulder and less #3?

The higher the left shoulder is, the faster the clubhead is slung into the ball with a flywheel type of action. Think Mike Austin, that's what I'm teaching basically. Look how high Mike Austin's left shoulder is. If his feet were flat on the ground, he probably would have been the greatest drier of all time, probably the greatest striker of all time, but because he had some air under his shoes, he struggled a bit and even lost a lot of distance.
R heel down at impact is not an important factor in the swing. As long as it is being PULLED up by the body's rotation rather than LIFTING up on its own, it is okay for it to be up.

For most people, R heel down + Left knee straightening = stand-up move, pivot stall and arm throw. Something like this:

I'm giving you the holy grail of golf and you're still doubting me,. You need to go to the range today and try what I'm saying or else your golf game will be left in the stone ages. Right heel down at impact is the second most important factor in the swing. I'd go so far as to say it's more important than club face and swing path in the scheme of things, and just barely behind the high left shoulder. If your left shoulder is high, you'll have tons of speed. If your right heed is down, your path and face will be almost perfect.

Basically, every bad shot in golf is the result of poor path, face, and clubhead speed. Now I can guarantee all of those parameters will be met with the highest left shoulder possible and the flattest right heel. Okay?


These players also still retained some L knee flex into impact rather than straightening it. In fact, two of the greatest ballstrikers ever, Moe Norman and George Knudson, while they kept their R heels down longer than most, allowed the L knee to bow out towards the target through the hit...they didn't straighten it until well after the ball was gone.

They only retained left knee flex late in their careers after their bodies were breaking down. Neither Moe Norman nor George Knudson did any exercises whatsoever. The only exercise Moe Norman did was being a spastic autistic and drinking coca cola. George Knudson never did squats with 450 lbs. If you can squat 450 lbs. which is the minimum squat you should be able to do, and i am talking all the way down, all they way up, you'll be able to get that left leg snap for life. Also, neither Moe Norman nor George Knudson were very long off the tee and would be completely irrelevant in today's game of golf. In fact I can't even consider them good ball strikers because they were so short.
Also, too aggressive of a left leg snap can damage the knee. It's why Tiger has had 4 knee surgeries to date. Oh, and lest someone say otherwise...Butch, Haney, Foley...none of them advocate a knee snap...that's something Tiger has done since he was a kid to get extra juice on the ball...but that has worked to his detriment.

Tiger damaged his left knee from hanging out with the Navy Seal's and horsing around with assault rifles. You need to read Hank Haney's new book and get out of the stone ages. It is very well documented that Tiger's knee was jacked up in something called a "Kill House" where all the Navy seals storm a house and start shooting up a storm. Hank Haney actually loved his left knee snap, and I have talked to Butch Harmon personally and Butch told me, "listen, the left knee snap is absolutely the secret to Tiger's swing." He promised me I wouldn't tell anyone, but Butch has never mentioned my name once on the golf channel so I feel like all is fair between us now. How you like me now Butchie I';m giving away the secrets of golf for FREE?!
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32256

Sean Illes wrote:
Hogan and Trevino were both great ball strikers in spite of their feet at impact. If they had been under my instruction, who knows how goo they could have been? I do not consider Furyk to be a great ball striker, he is average at best. Almost all of my high school players are significantly better strikers than Jim Furyk, they just lack his mental game. Hogan and Trevino could have really improved with a higher right shoulder, without a doubt.

The funniest post I've read on any golf forum....ROFL.
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32267

  • Timothy Goynes
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Sean Illes wrote:

They only retained left knee flex late in their careers after their bodies were breaking down. Neither Moe Norman nor George Knudson did any exercises whatsoever. The only exercise Moe Norman did was being a spastic autistic and drinking coca cola. George Knudson never did squats with 450 lbs. If you can squat 450 lbs. which is the minimum squat you should be able to do, and i am talking all the way down, all they way up, you'll be able to get that left leg snap for life. Also, neither Moe Norman nor George Knudson were very long off the tee and would be completely irrelevant in today's game of golf. In fact I can't even consider them good ball strikers because they were so short.

This is ridiculous. Moe and George both could hit the ball quite a long way with those persimmon clubs. When Moe was younger, he was hitting driver out there around 255-260 on average. Same with George...and anyone who has watched them play will tell you they could ramp it up another notch if they wanted to. Ever swung a persimmon driver at a balata ball? Let me tell you, it takes a pretty mighty whack to get the ball out there 260. Put a modern driver in either Moe's or George's hands and they'd be right up there with everyone else today. In fact, you can watch Moe in his later clinic videos hitting a Titleist 975 driver and bashing it out there near 300 yards.

The fact that you do not consider Moe Norman a great ballstriker (and call him a spastic autistic instead) points to your lack of knowledge about the history of the golf game and the golf swing in general. No man in history has ever hit the ball as straight as Moe Norman. Even being a poor putter, he shot 59 three times in tournaments, and holds all kinds of course records. I don't think you can do that by being a short-knocking, crooked-hitting player. Moe and George are both held in very high regard among players and teachers alike.

By the way, these players ALWAYS had left knee flex at impact, even when younger. Here's Moe in 1966.


George Knudson, 1967


Hogan, Power Golf era


Byron Nelson


Nicklaus in 60s and early 70s (including his famous 1-iron shot at Pebble in 1972)
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32280

  • Brad Owen
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Hogan and Trevino were both great ball strikers in spite of their feet at impact. If they had been under my instruction, who knows how goo they could have been? I do not consider Furyk to be a great ball striker, he is average at best. Almost all of my high school players are significantly better strikers than Jim Furyk, they just lack his mental game. Hogan and Trevino could have really improved with a higher right shoulder, without a doubt.

Ha nice one, you got me there....................oh wait you're serious?!? I thought your first post had a bit of head wobble about it but this one takes the cake. Lets see some of your students then hotshot
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32307

  • Dan
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I'd put it this way:
High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap =


Tiger_Woods_Future_Go_Flah_Medium_display_image.jpg
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32369

  • Dean Mitchell
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Guys, this guy is so obviously a troll. It couldn't be more obvious unless he put it in his avatar.

Oh, hang on a sec...
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 2 years 2 months ago #32423

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Sean Illes wrote:
I will try to address these comments in the order they were received:
I'm guessing these two guys would of made lousy students then.....And this guys ballstriking just stinks, look at that horrible right foot

Hogan and Trevino were both great ball strikers in spite of their feet at impact. If they had been under my instruction, who knows how goo they could have been? I do not consider Furyk to be a great ball striker, he is average at best. Almost all of my high school players are significantly better strikers than Jim Furyk, they just lack his mental game. Hogan and Trevino could have really improved with a higher right shoulder, without a doubt.
A high L shoulder and flat R foot doesn't match up. In order to have a high L shoulder, your R side has to bend inwards...so your R heel has to go off the ground.

What's the connection between high L shoulder and less #3?

This just isn't true. I just don't thin most players are physically ready to do what I'm talking about, which is why I advovate a golf workout program that is based almost exclusively on lifting as heavy a weight as possible from side to side. Picture putting a barbell across your back, then bending your right shoulder as low as possible while keep your feet flat, that's what we're working on every day. I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying that my high schoolers are literally carrying the ball 330+, even the lighter guys, while hitting 80% of fairways.

I have 14 year old kids who are doing the exercise I'm talking about with more than 250 pounds. If you're a grown man, you need to do this exercise with more than 300 pounds. If you have a barbell you can try it right now at home. Just put it across your back with as much weight as you can possibly put on it and bend your right shoulder down, then up. Do the other side. I reccomend doing this exercise daily for 10 reps and 3 sets with a LOT of weight.
What's the connection between high L shoulder and less #3?

The higher the left shoulder is, the faster the clubhead is slung into the ball with a flywheel type of action. Think Mike Austin, that's what I'm teaching basically. Look how high Mike Austin's left shoulder is. If his feet were flat on the ground, he probably would have been the greatest drier of all time, probably the greatest striker of all time, but because he had some air under his shoes, he struggled a bit and even lost a lot of distance.
R heel down at impact is not an important factor in the swing. As long as it is being PULLED up by the body's rotation rather than LIFTING up on its own, it is okay for it to be up.

For most people, R heel down + Left knee straightening = stand-up move, pivot stall and arm throw. Something like this:

I'm giving you the holy grail of golf and you're still doubting me,. You need to go to the range today and try what I'm saying or else your golf game will be left in the stone ages. Right heel down at impact is the second most important factor in the swing. I'd go so far as to say it's more important than club face and swing path in the scheme of things, and just barely behind the high left shoulder. If your left shoulder is high, you'll have tons of speed. If your right heed is down, your path and face will be almost perfect.

Basically, every bad shot in golf is the result of poor path, face, and clubhead speed. Now I can guarantee all of those parameters will be met with the highest left shoulder possible and the flattest right heel. Okay?


These players also still retained some L knee flex into impact rather than straightening it. In fact, two of the greatest ballstrikers ever, Moe Norman and George Knudson, while they kept their R heels down longer than most, allowed the L knee to bow out towards the target through the hit...they didn't straighten it until well after the ball was gone.

They only retained left knee flex late in their careers after their bodies were breaking down. Neither Moe Norman nor George Knudson did any exercises whatsoever. The only exercise Moe Norman did was being a spastic autistic and drinking coca cola. George Knudson never did squats with 450 lbs. If you can squat 450 lbs. which is the minimum squat you should be able to do, and i am talking all the way down, all they way up, you'll be able to get that left leg snap for life. Also, neither Moe Norman nor George Knudson were very long off the tee and would be completely irrelevant in today's game of golf. In fact I can't even consider them good ball strikers because they were so short.
Also, too aggressive of a left leg snap can damage the knee. It's why Tiger has had 4 knee surgeries to date. Oh, and lest someone say otherwise...Butch, Haney, Foley...none of them advocate a knee snap...that's something Tiger has done since he was a kid to get extra juice on the ball...but that has worked to his detriment.

Tiger damaged his left knee from hanging out with the Navy Seal's and horsing around with assault rifles. You need to read Hank Haney's new book and get out of the stone ages. It is very well documented that Tiger's knee was jacked up in something called a "Kill House" where all the Navy seals storm a house and start shooting up a storm. Hank Haney actually loved his left knee snap, and I have talked to Butch Harmon personally and Butch told me, "listen, the left knee snap is absolutely the secret to Tiger's swing." He promised me I wouldn't tell anyone, but Butch has never mentioned my name once on the golf channel so I feel like all is fair between us now. How you like me now Butchie I';m giving away the secrets of golf for FREE?!

If you are able to get that L shoulder high while keeping your R heel planted on the ground, you'll have to straighten/stand up your spine...you fark the goat big time...lol
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 1 year 11 months ago #35837

  • Alan Smith
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I tried Sean's teaching advice. I did 150 lb (not the 250lb he recommends, in time I'll be there) lateral bends with Olympic bars. I am doing crossfit training, so It wasn't too hard to incorporate the lateral bends. I did the bends for a month. I also have developed a sore left knee due to the Olympic powerbar lifting.

Today I tried his method and was pleasantly surprised by the results. For one thing, my knee actually felt better after the round. (I attribute this recovery due to the stretching of the muscles, tendons and ligaments of the knees) I didn't experience the Tiger Wood's knee phenomenon. I added around 20 yards to my drives. Most of the irons went straight, which was somewhat unexpected.

Since Sean left the forum before giving more instructions, I had to fill in some of the blanks. He talked about modeling after Mike Austin. So the back swing consisted of straightening the right leg on the back swing. I also found if I stretched the right shoulder high the whole right side felt tall and stretched. The downswing was walk onto the left leg, then stretch the left shoulder up high coming into impact. The whole swing felt simple. Keeping the right foot on the ground each time was hard. I sense I need more and heavier lateral bending weights, and more flexibility in the hamstring muscles.

The backswing is more upright than Hogan's plane of glass. More along the lines of Don Trahan's swing teachings. I didn't experience any of the doom and gloom predicted by some.

Too bad Sean left the forum.
Last Edit: 1 year 11 months ago by Alan Smith.
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 1 year 3 months ago #52981

First-timer here. Was out swinging at a plastic ball in the backyard and for the 5,000th time in my golfing career found something that seemed to work. I typed in ''high left shoulder'' into the PC and first cab off the rank was this forum/topic. Greetings.
As far as the left shoulder goes, I've often had it the back of my mind it's a visual meter (albeit peripheral) or leading edge to my swing and what I was trying to do was keep it reasonably straight in the take away, turn it to the top, keep it reasonably straight during take down and finally turn it through impact. Direction-wise, part three of this plan really meant there was no option other than to loft it fairly high.
Woudn't have a clue if I was left leg snapping or keeping my right heel decked at impact but despite the ''troll'' connotation in the above post I'm wondering if there's not more than a grain of truth in it?
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 1 year 3 months ago #52986

I'm just here to post in this very important thread.



I say the OP is a trolling alias.

Lolololo....
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 1 year 3 months ago #52988

  • svsvincenzo
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Sean Illes wrote:
A high L shoulder and flat R foot doesn't match up. In order to have a high L shoulder, your R side has to bend inwards...so your R heel has to go off the ground.

What's the connection between high L shoulder and less #3?

This just isn't true. I just don't thin most players are physically ready to do what I'm talking about, which is why I advovate a golf workout program that is based almost exclusively on lifting as heavy a weight as possible from side to side. Picture putting a barbell across your back, then bending your right shoulder as low as possible while keep your feet flat, that's what we're working on every day. I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying that my high schoolers are literally carrying the ball 330+, even the lighter guys, while hitting 80% of fairways.

I have 14 year old kids who are doing the exercise I'm talking about with more than 250 pounds. If you're a grown man, you need to do this exercise with more than 300 pounds. If you have a barbell you can try it right now at home. Just put it across your back with as much weight as you can possibly put on it and bend your right shoulder down, then up. Do the other side. I reccomend doing this exercise daily for 10 reps and 3 sets with a LOT of weight.
What's the connection between high L shoulder and less #3?

The higher the left shoulder is, the faster the clubhead is slung into the ball with a flywheel type of action. Think Mike Austin, that's what I'm teaching basically. Look how high Mike Austin's left shoulder is. If his feet were flat on the ground, he probably would have been the greatest drier of all time, probably the greatest striker of all time, but because he had some air under his shoes, he struggled a bit and even lost a lot of distance.

I agree with a higher L shoulder, but for as long as you've got a big #3, and for as long as that higher L shoulder is coming from a very low L shoulder from the top. So this would mean a bigger range of motion for the L shoulder. The low to high L shoulder motion will result to a straighter baseline of the plane (clubhead path less curved/arched).

However, this higher L shoulder, which will result to a lower R shoulder thru impact is COMPLETELY INCONSISTENT with a smaller #3. So I am amazed at how you came to that conclusion. Since you will have a lower R shoulder thru impact, you NEED a bigger #3.

Re R heel down, if you are to turn the L shoulder higher, you would have to extend your L hip or L side, or conversely you have to have R side bend. This means you would have to move your lower center more towards the target, so your R heel has to move towards the target as well. It may not go higher from the ground, but it should move laterally, hence get off the ground.

Re the L leg snap, this has got nothing to do at all with a higher L shoulder...but of course if you straighten the L leg your L shoulder goes higher...rofl

But my point is whether or not you move your L shoulder higher or more level//flat, the L leg can either be snapped, straightened or kept bent. So a higher L shoulder DOES NOT REQUIRE a snapping/straightening L leg. Look at Hogan and Trevino when they draw the ball.

Also, bit complicated, but...you trying to maintain R heel on the ground would mean less lateral move of the lower center, hence your L hip will be bunched up because of lack of L hip/side extension, hence you NEED to straighten/snap the L leg to unbunch it, otherwise it will HURT.

So, why not always do L side extension to unbunch the hips for a faster turn of the hips and consequently torso/shoulders/arms/club, then control the path and face with something else---L knee flexion/extension and/or hips and/or ext rot of L shoulder???
Last Edit: 1 year 3 months ago by svsvincenzo.
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Re: High Left Shoulder + Left Leg Snap = $ 1 year 3 months ago #53317

Thanks for advice Vincenzo and I've certainly taken your comments on board. After another backyard session I think in the high left shoulder swing I described I stand gulity of putting the cart before the horse ... or perhaps more pertinently {maybe as far as right side power units are concerned), the horse after the cart.
Cheers
Bob
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